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1. raxxor+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-08-16 06:54:18
I call myself a free speech absolutist (or advocate at least, absolutist is more of a slur). False compromises belong in the past. What X is doing isn't free speech at all and they have stated that advertisers will dictate what content will be seen, there is no commitment to freedom of speech at all.

But at least I can hold them responsible for violating their own stated values. The former Twitter leadership just hid content that didn't fit theirs or third parties sensitivities and told me they are doing me a favor.

Restricting speech is always in the interests of those that have the power to shape discussions, so limiting speech is always counter productive.

replies(4): >>oneeye+pc >>semi-e+Ej >>epista+mj1 >>single+sF1
2. oneeye+pc[view] [source] 2023-08-16 08:51:02
>>raxxor+(OP)
> advocate at least, absolutist is more of a slur

Those two are enormously different, though. I'd consider myself an advocate, just as anyone who believes in a fair and free democracy should. But I am very far from being an absolutist — and I have a secret suspicion that nobody actually is. Musk certainly isn't.

replies(2): >>raxxor+ng >>jquery+4i
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3. raxxor+ng[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 09:27:31
>>oneeye+pc
A few are and understand that most of the time your are defending scoundrels. But there is a sizeable and probable larger group that very easily wants to suppress speech they do not like. There never was a case where to much freedom of speech has been a significant problem, contrary to the other way around.

Next is misinformation and tomorrow you wonder why you cannot state your opinion anymore. A cycle that has been repeated ad nauseum. It just isn't a smart solution and causes more problems than it solves.

replies(1): >>jquery+cj
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4. jquery+4i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 09:42:46
>>oneeye+pc
Spam is an intractable problem for any so called free speech absolutist. One person's spam could be another person's desired message. But if a platform is overrun with spam, it becomes unusable for genuine discourse.

Maybe the biggest challenge is defining what constitutes "spam." While some cases seem clear-cut (e.g., repeated identical messages from bots, malware, phishing), others are quite subjective. Subtle marketing? Aggressive marketing? Repetitive but sincere advocacy for a cause? Repetitive but insincere trolling? Repetitive but sincere trolling?

All this seems rather obvious, so I was kind of surprised to see how many people bought into Elon's vision for Twitter, it was never workable.

replies(1): >>raxxor+co
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5. jquery+cj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 09:53:16
>>raxxor+ng
Do you get mad at google for automatically detecting and removing spam from your email inbox? For a lot of people, probably the majority, speech by scoundrels falls somewhere in that realm... there is simply no debate to be had about the basic humanity of certain classes of people. Capitalistic companies respond to this demand.

That said, I agree the government probably shouldn't be involved here for the most part (slippery slope, government is a blunt tool, etc.). As long as your "speech" isn't actually harming someone (harassment, revenge porn, incitement, etc.)

As long as we're defending scoundrels it's worth remembering we already lack so many protections for non-scoundrels. In a lot of states you can be fired if your boss hears a whiff of collective bargaining. But I digress.

replies(1): >>raxxor+Pn
6. semi-e+Ej[view] [source] 2023-08-16 09:56:01
>>raxxor+(OP)
> Restricting speech is always in the interests of those that have the power to shape discussions, so limiting speech is always counter productive.

This is not true. Restricting hate speech is an obvious counterexample.

replies(1): >>raxxor+vo
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7. raxxor+Pn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 10:35:45
>>jquery+cj
We are not talking about spam if that wasn't a rhetorical question. Advertising not wanting any controversy attached to their product placement is no solution and isn't desirable. This isn't done in the name of users.

That there are limited worker protections in countries is a different problem, but is certainly not inhibited by too much speech, quite the contrary it would worsen the situation further. Civil liberties never suffered because too much speech was allowed, so the perspective to err on the side of freedom is only logical.

> there is simply no debate to be had about the basic humanity of certain classes of people

That is just an invalid generalization.

replies(1): >>thfura+wq1
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8. raxxor+co[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 10:39:36
>>jquery+4i
Of course spam is also tracible. There might be difficulties for government to regulate it because of the legal context, but the solution is to hand the decision of filtering it to the user as long as that user doesn't decide for others.
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9. raxxor+vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 10:42:12
>>semi-e+Ej
It isn't obvious at all. It doesn't help for that matter, but that is secondary. On the contrary, it is just a popular excuse to restrict speech because nothing about hate speech is objective. We see bad legislation around the globe and that will never protect any minority.

It is a bad idea and damaging and there is ample empirical evidence for that.

replies(2): >>icantb+Q71 >>howint+p92
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10. icantb+Q71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 14:48:53
>>raxxor+vo
Please, link to the ample evidence. Quality research only, natch.
11. epista+mj1[view] [source] 2023-08-16 15:32:22
>>raxxor+(OP)
> The former Twitter leadership just hid content that didn't fit theirs or third parties sensitivities and told me they are doing me a favor.

The former Twitter leadership was very clear about what sort of content would be his. And is was based entirely on the type of content ahead of time. Critiquing this sort of content policy is like saying that newspapers should not be allowed to have clear standard for what is publishable in classified ads.

All claims of "I'm being oppressed" by Twitter policies have been absolutely ridiculous, and discrediting to supposed free speech advocate/absolutist positions.

Similarly discrediting is the silence on Musk's attacks on the free web and attempts at censorship of specific disprefeerred news outlets.

We all see what gets fought ago and what is not faught against, and the answer is clears the right to attack and intimidate groups with threatening behavior is defending, but actual censorship of reasonable discourse is tolerated.

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12. thfura+wq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 16:00:31
>>raxxor+Pn
>We are not talking about spam

Why not?

13. single+sF1[view] [source] 2023-08-16 17:01:54
>>raxxor+(OP)
When a company that provides a coherent speech product, their editorial decisions are made according to how they will affect the goal of user growth. The obvious result of a “free speech absolutist” social media coupled with the rules of network effects is one enormous, undifferentiated social network.

It probably goes without saying that this would be an extremely unpleasant place, but there would be nowhere else to go once the last platform won.

What we have today is a number of smaller social networks, each with a different strategy to shape the conversation. It may very well be true that the creators of a platform choose editorial methods and goals that resonate with them personally, but what’s important to the dynamic of the platforms and free speech is that until we are all on that one terrible platform, that methods used to moderate your speech are nothing more than a company’s efforts to differentiate their product from others.

Restricting speech is in the interest of product differentiation. This, of course, is in the interest of the owner of the product, but it is always also in the interest of the consumer who wants a rich speech market to choose from, and who loathes the idea of a global 4chan style megasite to the exclusion of all other social media. This is why failure to limit speech in the context of a coherent speech product is always counterproductive.

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14. howint+p92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 18:54:00
>>raxxor+vo
I love free speech, but you're going to have to convince me with a lot of evidence that Germany restricting pro-Nazi speech after WW2 was bad.
replies(1): >>apple4+pX2
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15. apple4+pX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 22:57:31
>>howint+p92
How about that restricting pro-Nazi speech before WW2 prevented nothing.
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