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1. jatins+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-08-15 10:12:31
I have spent < an year in US (mostly in California) and found the America behaviour to be very polite in speech but indifferent/mean in actions. The passive aggressive behavior seemed quite common.

As an outsider sometimes you are not aware of cultural norms, but I always felt the margin for error for what Americans considered "acceptable" was too narrow. There was no benefit of doubt, and sometimes an explicit dislike for someone who did not immediately fit in.

replies(8): >>fakeda+t1 >>soco+82 >>ajdude+87 >>trilby+Pw >>jsbisv+TK >>Brando+EY1 >>thraxi+kf3 >>jellic+6tb
2. fakeda+t1[view] [source] 2023-08-15 10:27:54
>>jatins+(OP)
I'm divided on this. I've found Californians, especially those of the tech type you'd find here in HN, and I've found many to be of exactly that nature. On the other hand, I've been to NY and the Midwest, and they've been extremely polite, in speech and action. It was funny how a policeman in Kenosha is very polite to a non-white me, or how most New Yorkers were extremely helpful, often giving me extras or guiding me throughout the city or what not, in spite of the bad reputations both have seemingly earned online.

The truth is that countries, or even cities, are not monolithic entities. It's entirely possible for each place to have two characters. In the same NYC that was largely kind to me, I was also stalked at by some lowlife with presumably evil intentions.

replies(1): >>giantg+b2
3. soco+82[view] [source] 2023-08-15 10:32:59
>>jatins+(OP)
This is something I noticed as well, and in more general terms, the importance put in the States on the appearances. For example, from what I've read here many US Americans are quick to point out that tipping culture is essential for giving you an always smiling waiter, while for me it's more important to know whether behind that smile there's a big "fuck you". I'd rather have an invisible waiter sticking with doing their job of serving people. Not that I don't like smiles, but I appreciate sincerity more.
replies(1): >>ethanb+X4
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4. giantg+b2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 10:33:11
>>fakeda+t1
NYC is not known for polite communication. In fact, they have a reputation for being loud and direct, which often comes across as rude to outsiders. Of course it is not everyone, but it is one of the stereotypes.
replies(2): >>monoos+83 >>Animal+0f1
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5. monoos+83[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 10:44:22
>>giantg+b2
The PP is aware of this (emphasis mine):

> ...in spite of the bad reputations both have seemingly earned online

replies(1): >>giantg+Gg
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6. ethanb+X4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 11:00:50
>>soco+82
tipping isn’t important in order to get a smile, it’s important because it’s a critical part of their wage. And yeah, if they do their job decently and you take that away, they’ll be upset (as you would too).

It’s a terrible custom in most ways but I don’t think you got a good explanation.

replies(1): >>soco+og
7. ajdude+87[view] [source] 2023-08-15 11:21:15
>>jatins+(OP)
From the other side, I'm American who spent time in Europe and I felt similar.I don't want to use the term “uptight” but I can't think of a better word.

No, I’m not trying to be disrespectful and I’m doing my best to be respectful. But it was culture shock and I wasn't used to the array of “we don’t do that here” and “you can’t dress like that there” etc. I was kind of on eggshells in many interactions over things that noone would give a second thought to in the US.

(For context, I visited The Netherlands, Belgium, and France)

replies(2): >>piva00+qj >>CalRob+bq
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8. soco+og[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 12:26:20
>>ethanb+X4
Their argument was in favor of keeping the tipping culture, as in not paying them the real wage because you'd lOsE ThAt sMiLe (as forced as it might be). Yes, I find this terrible as well.
replies(1): >>red-ir+ju
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9. giantg+Gg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 12:28:38
>>monoos+83
That's the thing, it's not just online. IRL there are reputations.
replies(1): >>fakeda+TG
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10. piva00+qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 12:46:14
>>ajdude+87
Could you give examples of what kind of behaviours generated a "we don't do that here" or "you can't dress like that there"? Dutch/Belgian and French culture are quite different, even between Dutch and Belgian there are enough differences to create some friction, and I'm asking for examples because I would never expect a "you can't dress like that there" from Dutch people, for example.

Uptight, surely, there are plenty of pockets of uptight cultures in Europe, even more in their largest cities. I consider Stockholm uptight as fuck but on the other hand I'd say that Malmö is pretty relaxed.

Using Europe as a single, homogeneous thing is the same mistake as calling the USA a homogeneous culture. There are traces of culture in both places that are quite orthogonal across many regions but there's so many regional differences that it becomes irrelevant.

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11. CalRob+bq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 13:26:30
>>ajdude+87
Sounds a bit Doe Normaal. Not the most endearing cultural trait. But then, when we lived in Ireland nobody would _tell_ us that they thought we were freaks for wearing colourful clothes or not caring about church or athletics, they would just insult us behind our backs.
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12. red-ir+ju[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 13:49:12
>>soco+og
who is "their" argument?

everyone knows its a ploy to make the servers work harder and obfuscate true costs of the meal.

replies(1): >>Brando+8Z1
13. trilby+Pw[view] [source] 2023-08-15 14:02:22
>>jatins+(OP)
I have to say that this phenomenon seems much more visible and extreme in denser urban areas. I'm an American who has lived in Europe for almost 20 years, and me and my family just completed a 2 week camping trip in rural Colorado and New Mexico and we had a fantastic time. People out in the country and in smaller towns seem to be a lot more friendly and open to getting to know you.

I'm not defending the US as I'm often the first to shit on it culturally, but I would definitely suggest getting out if California tbh.

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14. fakeda+TG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 14:55:27
>>giantg+Gg
I meant that as someone exposed to their bad reputations from what other people say online. I know, should've worded it better. NYC folks are portrayed as loudmouths, arrogant and moneyminded, even on TV. But honestly, one can be that, and yet also polite and kind at other times.
15. jsbisv+TK[view] [source] 2023-08-15 15:15:37
>>jatins+(OP)
> The passive aggressive behavior seemed quite common.

As someone in their 30's struggling to deal with the passive aggressive, unflinchingly uncaring and overall dismissive behaviors of my city's people, I could definitely see this being a trend in my fellow Americans. All lip service and nothing more.

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16. Animal+0f1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 17:34:59
>>giantg+b2
NYC may in fact be polite, from their perspective.

In NYC, there's always too much going on. The critical thing people lack is time. So they interact in ways that don't waste time. That may be being polite... in context.

replies(1): >>thraxi+vh3
17. Brando+EY1[view] [source] 2023-08-15 21:48:33
>>jatins+(OP)
I visited the US many times (probably 40+, a week to month long stays) mostly in Chicago and Phoenix.

I always clearly explained that I am a foreigner and do not know how to do this or that and I was given ample information.

The one time it did not work is when I had breakfast in a diner in Arizona and left my table after paying. A lady (also a customer) dropped le and time me how come I can leave without bringing my plate back. I was so surprised that I asked "this is what you do here in restaurants? Cleaning after yourselves?". She got mad and told me how I was misbehaved and everything.

She was clearly a weirdo, though.

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18. Brando+8Z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-15 21:51:25
>>red-ir+ju
Isn't there a tax incentive for the waiters to get their wage in time rather than salary?

After all, waiters could just refuse this system and they would get a normal salary like they do in Europe.

replies(1): >>ethanb+sy3
19. thraxi+kf3[view] [source] 2023-08-16 09:20:49
>>jatins+(OP)
> I have spent < an year in US (mostly in California) and found the America behaviour to be very polite in speech but indifferent/mean in actions. The passive aggressive behavior seemed quite common

It's worth noting that in the US, that's a stereotype of the west coast and California in particular. The contrast with NYC is particularly frequently cited. New Yorkers have a reputation for being very direct and coming across as rude but will actually be very nice and helpful once you get past that. New Yorkers will call you names that would make a sailor blush, and then immediately rush to help a woman carry her stroller up the subway steps.

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20. thraxi+vh3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 09:40:12
>>Animal+0f1
Yep. If you're a tourist standing, blocking the subway door like an idiot and not paying attention, you can expect a loud "get the FUCK out of the way!" from a New Yorker and probably a shove. It's definitely going to feel shockingly rude, but the reality is that you're preventing a dozen or so people from getting on or off during the limited time the train is stopped, interfering with people who just want to get to work or get home. Ie, you're the one being rude and selfish and the New Yorker is just correcting you as quickly and effectively as they can.

(source: lived in NYC for 15 years)

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21. ethanb+sy3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 12:05:04
>>Brando+8Z1
In general it’s unwise to draw parallels between Europe and the US on the topic of labor protections.
replies(1): >>Brando+Uz3
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22. Brando+Uz3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 12:15:15
>>ethanb+sy3
Yes I know. The thing is that I read somewhere that tips are easier on the taxes so it is not obvious that the staff wants to get rid of them. I may be mistaken,,or have a false memory, though.

This said, it is such a global thing in the US (specifically for waiters) that I do not understand why there isn't more pushback if this is a problem for everyone (except the restaurant owners)

replies(1): >>ethanb+Y44
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23. ethanb+Y44[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 14:39:52
>>Brando+Uz3
I don't think it directly has to do with taxes as much as take-home pay. Waiters are paid very little (below the minimum wage, which is itself unlivable), so the idea of "get rid of tips" is not usually accompanied by "and triple/quadruple their hourly wage."

FWIW there are more and more restaurants in the US (especially high-end ones) that have gotten rid of tipping but this is a labor-friendly decision made by management and puts the restaurant at a menu-price disadvantage to its competitors.

replies(1): >>Brando+mL4
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24. Brando+mL4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 17:24:37
>>ethanb+Y44
> Waiters are paid very little (below the minimum wage, which is itself unlivable)

Is there a legal anchor to this? I was under the impression that "minimum wage" is a salary they must be paid or otherwise it is illegal to employ someone (at least this is how the minimum wage works in France)

replies(1): >>ethanb+CD5
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25. ethanb+CD5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-16 21:01:21
>>Brando+mL4
Basically the hourly wage for tipped workers can be (and almost always is) below the minimum wage but if they don't hit the minimum wage in tips, then the remainder must be paid directly as a wage by the employer.

So if you earn $5/hr and minimum wage is $10/hr, you are guaranteed $10/hr but if you are receiving tips then the remaining $5 comes from your tips. If you do not, the remaining $5 comes from your employer.

However, a lot of tipped workers earn well over the minimum wage when you include tips. So if the proposal is: "let's get rid of tips and then you can get minimum wage," that's obviously not desirable. What would be more palatable is getting rid of tips and raising the minimum wage closer to what they earn with tips, which is really more a problem with the abysmal minimum wage than it is with tipping per se.

replies(1): >>Brando+SHb
26. jellic+6tb[view] [source] 2023-08-18 14:32:31
>>jatins+(OP)
This is why immigrants jive and fit well with other immigrants.

I am in hell right now..dealing with harassment(in the legal sense of the word)from a CA public agency, no less. Everyday I fantasize about quitting something I love because the psychological impact is too much to bear.

The only thing that keeps me going is that one day I hope karma will kick in…

I have become a lot meaner at heart. I wonder if I will turn into a tyrant if I ever acquire power.

In California, the worst racism I have faced is in Berkeley where they wear their progressiveness on the sleeve.

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27. Brando+SHb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-18 15:37:02
>>ethanb+CD5
Thank you for the explanation. The last solution is indeed the logical one.

We have a minimum wage of 10 USD/hour in France (net, after the zillion of taxes) but the actual minimum is based on a collective bargain that exists in some families of employment (including waiters). The average net salary for a waiter is 1700 USD/month (this includes retirement, social security, unemployment etc.) - not sure how this compares with the US (if there is a way to compare at all, taken how vastly different the systems are)

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