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[parent] [thread] 34 comments
1. backen+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:20:07
Am I missing something? There's no [federal] shield law protecting journalists in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_laws_in_the_United_Stat...

"There is no federal shield law and state shield laws vary in scope."

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1241/shield-law...

"There is no federal shield law"

Not even former or sitting presidents are protected.

replies(5): >>comte7+i >>asdfsd+o >>fnordp+x >>vorpal+E >>mcpack+e1
2. comte7+i[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:23:10
>>backen+(OP)
Did you read the article?
replies(1): >>LegitS+L
3. asdfsd+o[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:23:54
>>backen+(OP)
There are also state laws in the USA. This was in Kansas.

https://www.rcfp.org/privilege-compendium/kansas/#:~:text=Th....

replies(1): >>backen+W
4. fnordp+x[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:25:20
>>backen+(OP)
Linked in the original the article:

> The search warrant, signed by Marion County District Court Magistrate Judge Laura Viar, appears to violate federal law* that provides protections against searching and seizing materials from journalists. The law requires law enforcement to subpoena materials instead. Viar didn’t respond to a request to comment for this story or explain why she would authorize a potentially illegal raid.

* https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000aa

replies(3): >>teduna+P >>backen+71 >>s1arti+92
5. vorpal+E[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:26:27
>>backen+(OP)
I believe you are correct. The article cites 42 USC 2000aa but that doesn't apply in cases of criminal investigation tied to those articles if my non-lawyer understanding is correct, since it's only necessary that the things seized are tied to a crime (whether they are tied to a real crime or just being awkward for someone in power is of course it's own fight in court).
replies(1): >>wtalli+h9
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6. LegitS+L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:27:41
>>comte7+i
What if the article is wrong?
replies(1): >>comte7+a9
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7. teduna+P[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:28:00
>>fnordp+x
Does that law apply to non-federal employees?
replies(2): >>ceejay+e7 >>wtalli+n7
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8. backen+W[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:29:12
>>asdfsd+o
"The Kansas Constitution does not have an express shield provision, nor has it been construed in a manner providing such protection."
replies(2): >>arctic+a1 >>crypto+ec
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9. backen+71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:31:25
>>fnordp+x
> appears to violate federal law

It can appear as a can of tomatoes being consumed by Andy Warhol himself. It doesn't change the fact there are no shield laws in Kansas or the US for journalists.

replies(2): >>faster+X1 >>retroc+M7
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10. arctic+a1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:31:45
>>backen+W
It doesn't have to be in the constitution to be law.
11. mcpack+e1[view] [source] 2023-08-12 02:32:38
>>backen+(OP)
Yeah I don't get it, the First Amendment doesn't set up journalists as some special class of citizen; all citizens are meant to have the rights and protections journalists have.
replies(1): >>batch1+d7
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12. faster+X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:39:46
>>backen+71
From the linked Cornell article:

>...it shall be unlawful for a government officer or employee, in connection with the investigation or prosecution of a criminal offense, to search for or seize any work product materials possessed by a person reasonably believed to have a purpose to disseminate to the public a newspaper, book, broadcast, or other similar form of public communication

... followed by a bunch of caveats about cases in which it is acceptable to seize documents. I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds to me like a federal law protecting journalists. Whether or not it was violated in this case remains to be seen.

replies(1): >>s1arti+54
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13. s1arti+92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 02:42:25
>>fnordp+x
So journalists can't be searched with a warrant for murder or rape?

This is an incomplete summary of the laws

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14. s1arti+54[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:01:37
>>faster+X1
You cut off the first and most important caveat. Police can search and size if they think the journalist committed a crime, just not for 3rd party investigations.

>this provision shall not impair or affect the ability of any government officer or employee, pursuant to otherwise applicable law, to search for or seize such materials, if— (1)there is probable cause to believe that the person possessing such materials has committed or is committing the criminal offense to which the materials relate

This is obviously relevant as the police allege the journalist committed a crime, specifically identify theft.

replies(2): >>fnordp+n6 >>mlyle+UC1
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15. fnordp+n6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:28:28
>>s1arti+54
Yea I believe that’s the case here upon reading the statute closer. However given the newspaper had publicly said the documents were received from a source I am surprised a judge allowed a warrant. I am curious what evidence was presented and how it could have been more compelling than the public disclosure of a source.
replies(1): >>s1arti+P7
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16. batch1+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:36:38
>>mcpack+e1
Good point. Besides, what's a journalist anyway? There are many independent creators that label themselves as journalists. If that's the case, how many readers or followers must one have to be considered a 'journalist'? If journalists get special protection, I hereby declare myself one.
replies(1): >>wtalli+B9
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17. ceejay+e7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:36:46
>>teduna+P
How else would you read "a government officer or employee"?
replies(1): >>Zandik+Gf
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18. wtalli+n7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:39:23
>>teduna+P
Yes. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000aa-6

> (a) Right of action

> A person aggrieved by a search for or seizure of materials in violation of this chapter shall have a civil cause of action for damages for such search or seizure—

> (1) against the United States, against a State which has waived its sovereign immunity under the Constitution to a claim for damages resulting from a violation of this chapter, or against any other governmental unit, all of which shall be liable for violations of this chapter by their officers or employees while acting within the scope or under color of their office or employment; and [...]

And https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000aa-7

> (c) “Any other governmental unit”, as used in this chapter, includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, any territory or possession of the United States, and any local government, unit of local government, or any unit of State government.

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19. retroc+M7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:43:49
>>backen+71
But this doesn't mean government officials can deny people, even journalists, of constitutional rights. Which is why there's a 10th amendment.
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20. s1arti+P7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:44:07
>>fnordp+n6
Evidence could be extremely obvious, for example an IP addresses logging into a victim's account. It happens all the time.

Or it could be a trumped up accusation and an unconstitutional warrant.

We simply don't have the information. An honest an intelligent article would have articulated this question as the Crux of the matter, opposed to obfuscating it and claiming the warrant was unconstitutional.

I'm personally very opposed to a police corruption and overreach, but also hate skewed articles that mislead. Real reform needs to come from a place of accuracy opposed to hype and misinformation.

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21. comte7+a9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:58:39
>>LegitS+L
That’s an interesting hypothetical. Wrong about what exactly?

The thing is the article didn’t say anything about shield laws, which is what the comment I was responding to was talking about.

replies(2): >>s1arti+IY >>LegitS+5E1
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22. wtalli+h9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 03:59:23
>>vorpal+E
The materials seized from journalists need to be tied to a crime committed by the journalists rather than a third party, and the crime cannot merely be one of having or receiving the materials/information:

> may not search for or seize such materials under the provisions of this paragraph if the offense to which the materials relate consists of the receipt, possession, communication, or withholding of such materials or the information contained therein

(followed by exceptions for national defense and child pornography)

It seems unlikely that the police presented evidence the journalists were perpetrating identity theft, or evidence that the journalists obtained their information through computer hacking rather than receiving it from their confidential source. If the suspect for those crimes was the confidential source rather than the journalists, then the journalists and their work products would be protected by this law.

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23. wtalli+B9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 04:03:13
>>batch1+d7
For the purposes of the shield law at issue here:

> possessed by a person reasonably believed to have a purpose to disseminate to the public a newspaper, book, broadcast, or other similar form of public communication, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce;

"Journalist" is merely an informal summary of what the law actually states.

replies(3): >>Ekaros+pd >>batch1+Te >>mcpack+B91
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24. crypto+ec[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 04:36:32
>>backen+W
The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has been applied to the States by the Federal Courts via the Incorporation Doctrine (i.e., via the Fourteenth Amendment).
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25. Ekaros+pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 04:55:00
>>wtalli+B9
Looks like one needs to be twitter troll to qualify. Too much work...
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26. batch1+Te[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 05:21:01
>>wtalli+B9
Thanks, Yes- I want to state that my purpose is to distribute a similar form of public communication across state lines. Forgive me if I got it wrong at first, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a journalist.
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27. Zandik+Gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 05:31:58
>>ceejay+e7
Well, there's federal, state/territory, county/parish, city/district/municipal ... Not all government is federal government.
replies(1): >>ceejay+EY
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28. ceejay+EY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 13:44:46
>>Zandik+Gf
Federal law binds all of these, unless either stated otherwise or as forbidden by the Constitution.
replies(1): >>Zandik+zQ3
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29. s1arti+IY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 13:45:06
>>comte7+a9
The fundamental premise.

>The search warrant, signed by Marion County District Court Magistrate Judge Laura Viar, appears to violate federal law that provides protections against searching and seizing materials from journalists. The law requires law enforcement to subpoena materials instead.

This isn't true. It is legal to search and seize journalists, if the journalist are suspected of committing a crime.

Either the author doesn't know the law, or is being misleading, because the same article also says the local and state cops are investigating the local journalist.

replies(1): >>wtalli+sg1
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30. mcpack+B91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 14:52:20
>>wtalli+B9
The problem is what does any of that mean? Am I a journalist right now because I'm disseminating my writings to the public using a means of interstate commerce, e.g. the Internet? I'm guessing probably not, but the law should give me all the protections and recognize all the rights that a journalist has. It shouldn't be the government's place to decide who is or isn't a journalist; everybody is a journalist and should be protected accordingly.

If everybody is a journalist, then there's no ambiguity. But if the law says that some people are journalists and some people aren't, now there are two classes of citizen and it isn't even clear which is which.

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31. wtalli+sg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 15:32:30
>>s1arti+IY
> because the same article also says the local and state cops are investigating the local journalist.

The statement from the state police is a lot more vague than that:

> “At the request of the Marion Police Department, on Tuesday, Aug. 8, we began an investigation into allegations of criminal wrongdoing in Marion, Kansas. The investigation is ongoing”

And even the warrant only uses passive language indicating that crimes have been committed without identifying a suspect:

> Having evidence under oath before me from which I find there is probable cause to believe that an offense against the laws of the State of Kansas, including but not limited to violations of K.S.A. 21-6107 - Identity theft and K.S.A. 21-5839 - Unlawful acts concerning computers, has been committed

but the warrant does at least identify that it is believed computers at the paper were "involved in the identity theft". However, no person at the paper has yet been named as suspected of committing a crime.

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32. mlyle+UC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 17:54:35
>>s1arti+54
"to which the materials relate" still is a problem if you seize everything that a newspaper has in response to one bit of reporting that you think might have violated a law.

This makes it hard for me to see this as anything other than a retaliatory overreach, especially given the context of the paper's track record of critical reporting on local government and law enforcement.

It's also worth noting that the article mentions a lawful source for the information in question (a tip from Newell's husband).

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33. LegitS+5E1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-12 18:02:03
>>comte7+a9
the article offers a legal opinion that isn't a fact, just an opinion. Even between lawyers there will be differences of opinion on legal cases. Journalists and their opinions don't even enter the game here.

This isn't a case study, or an example from a textbook, its an ongoing situation. Conclusively saying that the raid was illegal isn't a fact, its just an opinion, and not even a credited one - it reads like the journalist's opinion.

So its one thing to report on a police raid, its another thing to offer a legal opinion and present it as fact without conditionals, or whose opinion it is.

What if they're wrong?

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34. Zandik+zQ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-13 16:00:49
>>ceejay+EY
In theory, yes.

In practice, no.

Just look at marijuana and abortion laws for two different prime examples of how supposed federal law superseding "lower" law can play out in ways that circumvent the nature of that power structure.

The reality is law is reactionary. Just because a law exists doesn't mean there is actually anything tangible preventing you from performing an action, and if the courts are acting in ways counter to federal law AND/OR federal law isn't asserting/executing authority that it has to supercede local law, then it's implicitly allowing it to continue and perhaps even setting precedent or groundwork to dismantle that particular paradigm.

Remember, this is America. States Rights advocates aren't just numerous, but hold significant power in state and federal legislature and courts. While the Federal law should reign supreme, the reality on the ground is that even when it does, it's often playing catch up, so there's still a gulf between how things work in theory, and in reality, if for nothing else just due to the slow operation of federal government and law.

replies(1): >>ceejay+TU3
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35. ceejay+TU3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-13 16:26:41
>>Zandik+zQ3
> Just look at marijuana and abortion laws for two different prime examples of how supposed federal law superseding "lower" law can play out in ways that circumvent the nature of that power structure.

Neither of these are good examples.

Marijuana is because the Feds choose not to act; the DEA could raid every dispensary tomorrow if they wanted.

Abortion never got meaningfully protected at the Federal level. The Dems had sort of a chance at it, but chose the ACA to spend that political capital on instead.

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