zlacker

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1. supriy+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-26 13:26:58
I mentioned this in the other WEI thread and I’ll do it here again:

Instead of simply flailing our collective arms around complaining about an evil corporation, has anyone written to the respective competition authorities (such as the FTC in the US or CCI in India) about the potential anticompetitive effects of this proposal?

replies(9): >>rapsey+Y5 >>mebass+hf >>except+Eq >>4oo4+0L >>dotted+9O >>scrum-+TS >>idreyn+OZ >>GeekyB+Bm1 >>Young-+Wx6
2. rapsey+Y5[view] [source] 2023-07-26 13:50:04
>>supriy+(OP)
FTC right now has awful leadership. They only care about blocking mergers and scoring political points.
replies(4): >>freeon+f6 >>supriy+H6 >>maxsil+ba >>r00fus+ae
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3. freeon+f6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:51:15
>>rapsey+Y5
Isn’t blocking mergers one of the founding goals of the FTC?
replies(1): >>scrum-+9T
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4. supriy+H6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:52:38
>>rapsey+Y5
That is a defeatist attitude; writing to them couldn't be worth less than shouting into the abyss with our comments on Github issues and on HN, etc.
replies(1): >>j45+68
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5. j45+68[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:58:42
>>supriy+H6
One thing that I’ve heard before is if one person complains a politician knows there’s 9 more.
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6. maxsil+ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:05:33
>>rapsey+Y5
It's literally the FTC's job to block most mergers (they are required by law to block bad mergers, see https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... for details)

Their leadership isn't "awful", their leaders are finally doing their job, for the first time in decades.

replies(2): >>cataph+8d >>rapsey+4e
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7. cataph+8d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:17:24
>>maxsil+ba
Doing their job by losing everything in court like the Activision/Microsoft case just last week? Great use of government resources.
replies(2): >>Larrik+De >>SllX+xy
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8. rapsey+4e[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:20:14
>>maxsil+ba
Blocking Meta's acquisition of that VR company was braindead. Absolutely pointless.
replies(1): >>JohnFe+211
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9. r00fus+ae[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:20:44
>>rapsey+Y5
FTC is actually the most active it's been in decades. Blocking mergers is one of its core functions. Not to mention the stance against NDAs, etc. Where have they been lacking?
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10. Larrik+De[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:22:30
>>cataph+8d
I'd rather they bring cases and lose some instead of never bringing cases and letting the corporations do whatever they want with no fear of consequences.
replies(1): >>xNeil+xk
11. mebass+hf[view] [source] 2023-07-26 14:24:22
>>supriy+(OP)
If you are in the UK you can also contact the competition and markets authority.

I've also created a parliament petition, which has gotten the 5 min supporters it needs before they review and publish it. I will share it on HN once its published.

Edit: removed the link to the petition for now (it'll come back after its published)

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12. xNeil+xk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:46:10
>>Larrik+De
If they bring cases and lose them corporations will continue doing whatever they want since there will be no consequences. It's important for the FTC to know what fights are worth fighting, and they will be taken seriously.
13. except+Eq[view] [source] 2023-07-26 15:08:37
>>supriy+(OP)
Trying to reach official authorities is a good idea. I will quote and extend part of my call to action I did in an other thread

- ban Google all together in your personal life. No chrome and no excuses. Stop the bullshit or leave this profession. Use startpage, duckduck or whatever for searching.

- develop with and for firefox and friends only, introduce usability problems for chrome

- employ the same tactics as google.

  -> Bundle firefox with the software you are distributing. 

  -> Like google did, remove the competition altogether from the users device.

  -> make your npm-module or your website slower in chrome

  -> let your customers know that your service for non-chrome users is cheaper. Money motivates.

  -> show a popup urging users to download firefox, provide a link to download or page with more explanation.
 Tell that you detected that their current chrome has security and privacy risks and that you recommend to take action immediately. Average user is easily scared into action.

  -> use as many tricks as you can think of to spoil the well for google. 
     Destroy search results, fill their storage with /dev/random, whatever your imagination leads you too. You keep telling us you are so smart. Show it.
- remember, Google's capital is data. Hit that and the beast will die.
replies(6): >>xur17+nr >>prox+vL >>lances+121 >>Pawger+LM1 >>throw1+gQ2 >>unstuc+eP6
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14. xur17+nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:11:35
>>except+Eq
> show a popup urging users to download firefox, provide a link to download or page with more explanation. Tell that you detected that their current chrome has security and privacy risks and that you recommend to take action immediately. Average user is easily scared into action.

If I recall correctly, this was Google's approach with Chrome.

replies(4): >>bmacho+Nt >>thejos+IJ >>lances+H21 >>RunSet+l41
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15. bmacho+Nt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:18:05
>>xur17+nr
So were the other items in the "employ the same tactics as google." list.
replies(1): >>xur17+8K
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16. SllX+xy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:34:06
>>cataph+8d
So a technical note I’m posting here mostly because I dug into this only for a comment I was responding to to be deleted:

What they lost in the case they filed in June was an enjoinment to prevent the merger and acquisition of Activision/Blizzard until their own FTC judge (read: an administrative law judge that exists outside of Article III and is within the chain of command of the Executive branch) could hear the case on August 2nd. The merger had a termination date of July 18th, so they needed that to continue their administrative review. Discovery was finished, it was just the trial, but without being able to enjoin the trial because in the opinion of Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley they were unlikely to prove the merits of their assertions, the trial before the FTC judge would have been moot by the time it occurred. It’s been formally cancelled by the FTC by the way.

I’m not disagreeing with you by the way, I just wanted a place to park this information in the discussion. They started this action in December and failed to win even an enjoinment against Microsoft and Activision temporarily stopping the merger until their own guy could hear the case.

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17. thejos+IJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:13:25
>>xur17+nr
And is the same tactics Microsoft uses with Edge. Try and download Chrome on edge, and you'll have Microsoft begging you not to download it.
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18. xur17+8K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:15:10
>>bmacho+Nt
That's what I get for skimming the post, lol.
19. 4oo4+0L[view] [source] 2023-07-26 16:18:17
>>supriy+(OP)
My thoughts exactly. These GitHub protests, while emotionally satisfying, do not work. Google does not care and they are already drunk on monopolist power.

Contact info for antitrust authorities:

US:

- https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation

- antitrust@ftc.gov

EU:

- https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/contact_en

- comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu

UK:

- https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tell-the-cma-about-a-competition...

- general.enquiries@cma.gov.uk

India:

- https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/

I could not find an easy contact method for filing a complaint for the CCI, but it looks like this is the process?

- https://www.cci.gov.in/filing/atd

Canada:

- https://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-e...

I'm happy to share what I've sent to the FTC if others want to use it as a template.

replies(2): >>lances+Z21 >>sickil+wzg
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20. prox+vL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:20:20
>>except+Eq
Going to do this. This is brilliant!

-> let your customers know that your service for non-chrome users is cheaper. Money motivates.

replies(1): >>applef+5U
21. dotted+9O[view] [source] 2023-07-26 16:29:39
>>supriy+(OP)
Has anyone sent such a message to their authority? Please share, as more authorities (Norwegian anti-competition authority will surely want to hear about taht) need to be contacted with well-researched text.
22. scrum-+TS[view] [source] 2023-07-26 16:46:21
>>supriy+(OP)
> "Instead of simply flailing our collective arms around complaining about an evil corporation, has anyone written to the respective competition authorities (such as the FTC in the US or CCI in India) about the potential anticompetitive effects of this proposal?"

Yes, I have. A couple times now.

Google has been strongly signaling this since last year. No one wanted to believe it last year though, before the tech bubble burst. Now that people see Google isn't so awesome right now, perhaps more people will write and contact their representatives.

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23. scrum-+9T[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:47:01
>>freeon+f6
Protecting consumers is the goal. If that means blocking mergers to protect consumers, then so be it.
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24. applef+5U[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 16:50:12
>>prox+vL
This suggestion is particularly brilliant
25. idreyn+OZ[view] [source] 2023-07-26 17:10:26
>>supriy+(OP)
I wrote to the FTC: https://gist.github.com/idreyn/a37e4249b326243e1714b14780717...
replies(1): >>spudly+L61
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26. JohnFe+211[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:15:22
>>rapsey+4e
So you're upset about that decision. Fair enough! I can't think of any regulatory agency that hasn't made a decision I thought was terrible at some point or another.

But that doesn't mean that what they do, big picture, is pointless.

replies(1): >>rapsey+I41
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27. lances+121[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:18:39
>>except+Eq
Also use robots.txt to block Google if you can afford to. I've blocked them (and everyone else) from everything but my homepage.
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28. lances+H21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:21:05
>>xur17+nr
This is still Google's approach.
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29. lances+Z21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:22:02
>>4oo4+0L
Please share your template.
replies(3): >>4oo4+L51 >>icecre+kma >>sickil+eAg
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30. RunSet+l41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:27:07
>>xur17+nr
Google's approach with Chrome was to pay shareware developers to bundle it in the installer and expect users wouldn't opt-out.
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31. rapsey+I41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:28:08
>>JohnFe+211
Fact of the matter is acquisitions are a corner stone of the tech economic model. If they actually cared about consumers and competition they would go after MS for bundling Teams. Or MS for round-tripping cash with OpenAI.
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32. 4oo4+L51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:31:25
>>lances+Z21

    I would like to bring your attention to Google’s recent proposal to add a feature to its Chrome (Chromium family) of browsers called Web Environment Integrity. This provides a mechanism to reinforce Google’s already dominant browser market position by creating a technological control that can be used to nullify a user’s choice of browser, device and operating system. This technology also has the potential for abuse by preventing users from using browser extensions that can enhance security by blocking unwanted and potentially malicious content, as well as browser extensions that help vulnerable users with enhanced accessibility needs, such as color blindness and visual impairment.
    
    Google’s dominant, near-monopoly position in the browser market already harms me as a consumer by reducing browser choices and preventing a competitive market for developing new browsers. Allowing Google to include this feature will reduce my browser choices and consolidate the browser market even further, and it is incumbent on [INSERT AUTHORITY HERE] to take action against this abusive behavior.
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33. spudly+L61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:34:43
>>idreyn+OZ
This is excellent. Thank you.
34. GeekyB+Bm1[view] [source] 2023-07-26 18:28:27
>>supriy+(OP)
> has anyone written to the respective competition authorities

Just a reminder that several states have already filed an antitrust suit (in part) over a previous Google plan to turn the web into their own walled garden.

> Project NERA was Google’s original plan to create a closed ecosystem out of the open internet. Google documents reveal that Google’s motive was to “successfully mimic a walled garden across the open web [so] we can protect our margins.”

According to Google’s internal documents, the strategy would allow Google to extract even higher intermediation fees. A Google employee aptly described Google’s ambition for Project NERA to “capture the benefits of tightly ‘operating’ a property … without ‘owning’ the property and facing the challenges of building new consumer products.”

Google main strategy to do this was to leverage its popular browser, Chrome, to track users, by forcing them to stay logged into the browser. Google did this by logging users into the browser when they logged into any Google property such as Gmail or YouTube, and logging them out of services when they logged out of the browser.

https://mspoweruser.com/project-nera-state-attorneys-general...

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.56...

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35. Pawger+LM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 20:09:12
>>except+Eq
I'm not well versed on scrapers. How do you fill their storage with /dev/random? Did they employ this tactic on competitors at one point as with the rest of your psot?
replies(1): >>except+M32
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36. except+M32[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 21:21:45
>>Pawger+LM1
gmail, google storage, contacts, content farms, Google slurps everything it can find. /dev/random would be something for storage. For other stuff you would fake data. No, not all the tips listed have been take from their playbook.
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37. throw1+gQ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 02:40:31
>>except+Eq
> - employ the same tactics as google.

This is incredibly hypocritical. I would never want to work with or for, or employ, or be friends with or associate myself with someone who blatantly displayed this level of hypocrisy and lack of integrity.

This comment is also clearly violating the HN guidelines - it's not intellectually interesting, it's naked political activism.

replies(1): >>except+Za4
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38. except+Za4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 13:43:20
>>throw1+gQ2
Political? You are overly optimistic. We wish there would be some notion and attention of the politeia here.

On hypocrisy: Both cancer and cancer surgery are aggressive, doesn't make them the same. Google violated competition laws, we as individuals don't.

39. Young-+Wx6[view] [source] 2023-07-28 02:15:34
>>supriy+(OP)
For developers, insert this JavaScript file to block all WEI-enabled browsers from accessing your website. https://github.com/Young-Lord/fight-for-the-open-web
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40. unstuc+eP6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 06:14:10
>>except+Eq
> show a popup urging users to download firefox, provide a link to download or page with more explanation.

Has anyone already made a template for this that you can easily include in your website?

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41. icecre+kma[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 05:06:45
>>lances+Z21
I shared the content of an email I sent out to a few different groups the other day here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36888156&p=2#36889971

There were some reasonable criticism that it was too long/wordy hopefully you can adapt and reformat to your liking.

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42. sickil+wzg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-31 11:18:09
>>4oo4+0L
Done! Sent to 3 places. Let’s do this people!
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43. sickil+eAg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-31 11:25:00
>>lances+Z21
Subject: Potential Threat to Digital Freedom from Google's Web Environment Integrity

Dear [Recipient],

I'm writing to highlight an important matter regarding the digital freedom and competitiveness on the internet. Google is rapidly advancing a policy named "Web Environment Integrity" (WEI) in their Chromium browser.

WEI allows developers to regulate browser configurations, which could lead to limiting the usage of free browsers or operating systems. This creates a potential for a web environment that discriminates based on browser usage. Further, this scenario could pave the way for governments and corporations to enforce specific browser usage and could also allow Google to restrict access to their services based on browser compliance.

This practice contradicts the fundamental principles of an open and competitive digital marketplace. I strongly encourage your agency to investigate the potential impacts of Google's WEI and consider taking necessary actions.

Your proactive engagement is vital in preserving the principles that ensure a free and open web.

Best regards,

[Your Name]

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