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[parent] [thread] 29 comments
1. inepte+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-24 23:19:48
I don't buy this. I'm sure most iphone users don't care when you ask them about privacy or manifest v3 as an abstract concept, but remember what happened when Apple tried to push a U2 album to them? They lost their collective shit. They may not write blog posts about privacy or donate to the EFF, but they have deeply personal relationships with "their" phone and they absolutely hate being reminded that it isn't really theirs.

If this weren't true, Apple could just start inserting ads into every iphone's Safari window tomorrow, and Youtube could serve the ad in the same stream as the video to defeat adblockers, and they'd make a bunch of extra money with no downside. The fact that they don't do this suggests that Apple and Google understand this: people only tolerate restricted platforms that do a convincing job of pretending to be unrestricted. In practice, this means that step 1 of Google foisting off user-hostile stuff on us is getting Firefox to include it too, which is presumably why they spend so much money on it.

replies(5): >>nl+z1 >>notato+6i >>izacus+Rl >>jamesh+KB >>lozeng+N61
2. nl+z1[view] [source] 2023-07-24 23:31:57
>>inepte+(OP)
No one I knew really cared much about the U2 album except that it was a bad album and they didn't want it in their collection. From the people I know there no one upset about the power dynamics - everyone who complained would have been 100% happy if Apple had given them an album they liked.
replies(1): >>TylerE+Gc
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3. TylerE+Gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 00:52:44
>>nl+z1
And also, in a bug I'm not sure was entirely on Apple, when plugged into many car stereos iTunes would start playing the first song in your library, so users were annoyed because everythime they'd plug their phone into their car to charge it would start playing a 3rd tier U2 album.
replies(2): >>gessha+Ws >>pjerem+q21
4. notato+6i[view] [source] 2023-07-25 01:30:26
>>inepte+(OP)
>when Apple tried to push a U2 album to them? They lost their collective shit

and that's exactly it. putting something in your music library is a hugely more visible and tangible thing than all the nebulous privacy concerns the internet wants me to be afraid of. nobody gives a shit if google or apple or facebook or whoever else introduces some techical measure that could be used for nefarious things. they only care if that api is actually used for nefarious things. as long as the argument is "well if google implements X, then it would potentially allow them to do Y*, that's a failing argument.

like it or not, people actually do trust the big tech companies. as long as they aren't actively abusing that trust in ways that people care about, things like "google wants to know if you're a real person or a bot" aren't going to cause a whole lot of outrage. most people can understand that letting fake people pretend to be real is bad, and that preventing that is probably a good thing.

replies(2): >>Spring+FO >>DropIn+gQ1
5. izacus+Rl[view] [source] 2023-07-25 01:58:58
>>inepte+(OP)
iPhone users are using Manifest V3 _every single day_ in their Safari. There was never another option for them.

Yet, noone cares, even on HN.

replies(2): >>rebecc+en >>lapcat+Gt
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6. rebecc+en[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 02:11:07
>>izacus+Rl
I care, and I've basically stopped using my iphone for anything because the web is an abysmal experience full of ads even with the maximum amount of ad blocking possible on iOS. I hate the iPhone and the only reason I haven't switched back to android is that it seems to manage to, somehow, still be even worse. We are well and truly on the other side of the enshitification event horizon on mobile, and it looks like Google is doing it's best to make sure the web keeps up on the desktop too.
replies(3): >>crimso+Nr >>mod50a+6A >>manuel+xC
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7. crimso+Nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 02:58:16
>>rebecc+en
You could use Brave or Orion and get adblocking on iOS
replies(3): >>WhyCau+TB >>rebecc+zK >>izacus+jS
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8. gessha+Ws[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 03:08:36
>>TylerE+Gc
Ba-ba-Barbara, Santa Barbara Ba-ba-Barbara, Santa Barbara…
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9. lapcat+Gt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 03:13:44
>>izacus+Rl
> iPhone users are using Manifest V3 _every single day_ in their Safari. There was never another option for them.

This is false. Safari supports Manifest V2 and has no plans to deprecate it.

I'd guess that you're confused because Safari lacks support for webRequest BlockingResponse: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/Web...

replies(1): >>izacus+fS
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10. mod50a+6A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 04:15:57
>>rebecc+en
Android has F-Droid, including Fennec F-Droid (Firefox for Android), which is the only tolerable mobile browser, imo.
11. jamesh+KB[view] [source] 2023-07-25 04:29:43
>>inepte+(OP)
> when Apple tried to push a U2 album to them? They lost their collective shit.

Yeah, Apple was toast after they did that. Their share price in 2014 when they did that was $24, and immediately afterwards it rose to $33 over the next 12 months. And since then, it's just been one long slow decline to almost $200 a share, as their global mobile market share has gone from the 24% it enjoyed in 2014 to the measly 29% it enjoys today.

Online outrage does not translate to action.

replies(2): >>hinkle+FK >>Someon+Li1
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12. WhyCau+TB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 04:31:40
>>crimso+Nr
Or Firefox Focus, which is what I use. It does a pretty good job.
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13. manuel+xC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 04:39:44
>>rebecc+en
Not trying to get you back on your iPhone but I can tell you that 1Blocker + NextDNS do wonders when it comes to blocking ads on the web using iphones. Granted, sometimes some sites do break for weird reasons but i'm happy to live with that if it means I get to avoid ads. Hell, it even manages to block ads on mobile youtube.
replies(1): >>rebecc+iK
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14. rebecc+iK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 05:48:46
>>manuel+xC
My personal experience with ad blocking on iOS is that it’s both far less effective overall than ublock origin, and still manages to break a lot more sites. I have 0 tolerance for ads though- so even a 99% success rate on a site is unacceptable to me and I’ll just not use that site on my phone. Maybe 2/3rds of sites fail by that criteria for me. If ublock origin on my desktop computer also fails, then I don’t use the site at all- but that’s a vanishingly rate occurrence.
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15. rebecc+zK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 05:51:59
>>crimso+Nr
Until Apple allows other browser engines, everything is still limited to the same set of blockers you can get in safari. None of them are remotely good enough compared to ublock origin. My current phone probably has around 6-12 months of life left in it, and if Apple doesn’t have a solution by then I’m dropping the iPhone and either going with a de-Googled android build or giving up on smart phones altogether.
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16. hinkle+FK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 05:53:22
>>jamesh+KB
Look at all of the albums Apple has pushed on people since then.
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17. Spring+FO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 06:31:15
>>notato+6i
> as long as the argument is "well if google implements X, then it would potentially allow them to do Y", that's a failing argument.

It's similar to privacy 'dead bodies'[1], where users want to know actual concrete examples. I keep a collection of them in a larger directory of web pages about privacy, about instances where 'nebulous' privacy aspects meet reality and users are impacted and upset by it.

[1] Term used by a law professor in Daniel J. Solove's "I've got nothing to hide" and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy

replies(1): >>Toreno+Go9
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18. izacus+fS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 07:04:15
>>lapcat+Gt
Whatever it's called, it has all the downsides of Manifest V3 that are being criticized for Google.

Just slapping another name on it doesn't make the issues go away.

replies(1): >>lapcat+5g1
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19. izacus+jS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 07:04:51
>>crimso+Nr
Those are all using the same browser engine with the same limitations that ManifestV3 is bringing to Chrome. You're using it.
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20. pjerem+q21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 08:35:32
>>TylerE+Gc
It still happens it’s still The Miracle / Song Of Innocence / U2 and it’s still annoying.
21. lozeng+N61[view] [source] 2023-07-25 09:13:30
>>inepte+(OP)
Nobody would care about the U2 album today. It would be just another pop up or advertising notice among many others.

Microsoft recommends Edge! Review your choices! 90 days free Apple TV! Upgrade your iCloud to continue backups!

The only one that slightly moved the meter is your documents moving to OneDrive, even that only had an impact because of a data loss bug.

replies(1): >>IIsi50+yhe
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22. lapcat+5g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 10:41:40
>>izacus+fS
> it has all the downsides of Manifest V3

This is not true either. There are many different aspects to Manifest V3, such as restrictions on script execution.

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23. Someon+Li1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 11:07:19
>>jamesh+KB
You’re forgetting a 4:1 stock split in August 2020, so it’s even worse ;-)

I think this illustrates that people only worry about this kind of thing if it gets shoved into their face.

The privacy thing is OK as long as it’s only used for the good. For example, I think nobody would object against a world where every killer would be caught within an hour to get a fair trial.

However, such a world also would be one where every traffic offense could be fined, and where powers that be could find some dirt on anybody in their email history, presence on on-street cameras, etc. Worse, it would take relatively few people to pull that of.

That’s something I think nobody wants, but it’s abstract until it affects you, so few people worry about it.

replies(1): >>Weylan+JC2
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24. DropIn+gQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 14:21:41
>>notato+6i
So your argument is that as long as the harms are invisible enough to the consumer that no action should be taken?

May I introduce you to Tobacco?

replies(1): >>16bitv+cU1
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25. 16bitv+cU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 14:36:43
>>DropIn+gQ1
No. They're just saying that if they're invisible, most people won't care. They're not saying anything about what should or shouldn't happen.
replies(1): >>DropIn+eF2
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26. Weylan+JC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 17:09:17
>>Someon+Li1
By this argument we should defund the police because they could be used for oppression. Forgetting the reality that they are also stopping thousands of crimes every single day.

Privacy absolution is never what most people signed up for.

replies(1): >>Someon+cS7
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27. DropIn+eF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 17:18:39
>>16bitv+cU1
Why is it that no one comprehends the existence, let alone nature, of _implicit_ statements?
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28. Someon+cS7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 22:07:08
>>Weylan+JC2
Where did I make the argument that “we” don’t want to give up any privacy? I’m only claiming “we” don’t want to give up all privacy.

Also, “the police” are thousands of humans. That makes it harder to use the police for oppression than if “the police” were a bunch of computers and robots.

If somebody proposed the latter, I think lots of people would object.

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29. Toreno+Go9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 10:50:24
>>Spring+FO
> Daniel J. Solove's "I've got nothing to hide" and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy

That was an interesting read, thank you!

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30. IIsi50+yhe[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 17:44:38
>>lozeng+N61
I would care, in part, because it would be just another popup or advertising notice among [too] many. (-:
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