zlacker

[parent] [thread] 40 comments
1. LispSp+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-24 21:48:53
They're going to prevent me from running an adblocker in this "web integrity" environment, aren't they.
replies(6): >>Charle+C6 >>benter+Q6 >>gochi+H7 >>Gazoch+vi >>px43+Nj >>neop1x+cs1
2. Charle+C6[view] [source] 2023-07-24 22:26:29
>>LispSp+(OP)
Stopping anything that modifies a page on behalf of the user (rather than the creator or Google) will be step 0.
3. benter+Q6[view] [source] 2023-07-24 22:27:22
>>LispSp+(OP)
Not until Mozilla gives in.
replies(7): >>hdjdnd+A7 >>LispSp+E7 >>blibbl+i8 >>exithe+A9 >>kelnos+xa >>dolive+Bi >>dhx+GS
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4. hdjdnd+A7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:31:27
>>benter+Q6
Where do you think Mozilla gets its funding from?
replies(1): >>hdjdnd+F7
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5. LispSp+E7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:31:39
>>benter+Q6
As I recall, Mozilla caved last time with EME so I would not count on it.
replies(1): >>JohnFe+o9
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6. hdjdnd+F7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:31:43
>>hdjdnd+A7
Capitulation in 3,2,1
7. gochi+H7[view] [source] 2023-07-24 22:32:01
>>LispSp+(OP)
They run the largest ad company on the planet, affecting adblockers is always a primary goal for them.
replies(1): >>ninten+eAf
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8. blibbl+i8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:35:58
>>benter+Q6
no web attestation for them then

youtube, prime video, netflix, banking, github

none of that for firefox users

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9. JohnFe+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:43:31
>>LispSp+E7
Yeah, that was when I realized that Mozilla wasn't really able to stand up to the bad guys as much as we'd hope.
replies(2): >>jeroen+2c >>redeem+0d
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10. exithe+A9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:44:32
>>benter+Q6
The market share of firefox is so low and there are already a ton of popular websites that don't work on firefox. Mozilla will very much be forced to follow along here.
replies(1): >>benter+P21
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11. kelnos+xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 22:50:40
>>benter+Q6
And if they don't give in, Firefox users will stop being able to access Google properties, and then probably others like video and music streaming sites, and possibly even the larger news outlets. Banking sites might get in on the action, being led to believe that doing so will increase security.
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12. jeroen+2c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 23:02:06
>>JohnFe+o9
You can still disable EME if you don't want it. That's a lot harder to do on other browsers.

I would probably have dropped Firefox back then if it was the only browser that I couldn't watch Netflix in, and I wouldn't be the only one. I don't think Mozilla can bear the loss of userbase.

replies(1): >>JohnFe+Ia2
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13. redeem+0d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 23:09:05
>>JohnFe+o9
thats because mozilla simply stopped having any interest in browsing whatsoever.

They now have an interest in limited edition color drops and with their bespoke charactaristic allowing users to select color that best resonates with them.

You and I, as mere mortals, may not know what this means, but rest assured, mozilla does.

replies(1): >>redeem+km
14. Gazoch+vi[view] [source] 2023-07-24 23:51:35
>>LispSp+(OP)
Pretty sure that's the main goal.
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15. dolive+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-24 23:52:34
>>benter+Q6
Even if they don't, a lot of websites are just breaking on Firefox. The development community decided they want a Chrome monoculture.
16. px43+Nj[view] [source] 2023-07-25 00:01:36
>>LispSp+(OP)
That makes zero sense. If they ever did that they would lose all their market share overnight, and they know that. Google has always been good about letting people have full control over their devices, despite building incredibly locked down UX.

It would be trivial for them to build a Chromebook, or Android phone, or browser that you can't flip into dev mode, but they've never done that, even though many of their competitors in the space regularly lock users out of their devices.

replies(3): >>whatsh+up >>howint+vt >>flying+8x
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17. redeem+km[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 00:20:16
>>redeem+0d
to whomever downvoted this, you clearly need some more independent voices in your life, but fear not, Mozilla got you covered: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-news/in...
replies(2): >>animuc+nl1 >>accoun+fo5
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18. whatsh+up[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 00:43:42
>>px43+Nj
That is what would happen if they made adblocking impossible in chrome today, minus all the people who don't use AdBlock and happen to be numerous enough to be Google's entire business.

In a world with attestation, you can't browse any website unless you are using Chrome or another attested browser. The New York Times would refuse to serve content to unattested user agents. That is what would make everyone use Chrome.

replies(3): >>userbi+Mx >>gloosx+091 >>ninten+mAf
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19. howint+vt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 01:12:06
>>px43+Nj
Chrome for Android _already_ doesn't let you use an adblocker, and it has a pretty high share in the mobile market.
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20. flying+8x[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 01:36:33
>>px43+Nj
It will be, as always, incrementalism. Tweak this little requirement here, then maybe two versions down the road lock this down, then a couple years later bring the hammer down before anyone can react. "Move fast and break things..."
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21. userbi+Mx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 01:41:41
>>whatsh+up
The scariest part is that it's not just the browser --- remote attestation goes right down to the hardware with things like the TPM, so if even one piece of your software is not "approved", you'll be locked out.
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22. dhx+GS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 04:58:59
>>benter+Q6
Mozilla are proposing IPA[1] which is designed to track user interaction with ads and product marketing, and track any conversion that occurs (e.g. users end up purchasing something).

If you are shown a product ad whilst browsing searchengine.example and then later look up the product at reviews.example, then end up making a purchase at shop.example, your browser sends all of these events to an aggregation service that allows shop.example to understand (at least in aggregate, assuming you trust the cartel running the aggregation service) that you were exposed to their product at searchengine.example and further exposed to their product at reviews.example.

[1] https://github.com/patcg-individual-drafts/ipa/

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23. benter+P21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 06:31:22
>>exithe+A9
> there are already a ton of popular websites that don't work on firefox.

Like which one?

replies(1): >>exithe+SH1
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24. gloosx+091[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 07:27:19
>>whatsh+up
> The New York Times would refuse to serve content to unattested user agents.

You forgot one thing – once a copy of the content is server to AT LEAST one attested user agent – what prevents him from sharing his copy with unattested users?

It is easy to see that if something will make getting the content harder – it will immediately find the path of least resistance. This is the reason any new Netflix title is available for free an hour after the premiere. And the harder Netflix will try to fight this - less time will pass before their content is stolen and re-translated for free. Exactly same will happen to New York Times if they refuse to serve - someone would serve a copy instead of them – because there is now demand created for such copy.

replies(1): >>whatsh+c91
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25. whatsh+c91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 07:28:44
>>gloosx+091
>once a copy of the content is server to AT LEAST one attested user agent – what prevents him from sharing his copy with unattested users?

This is already covered by the DRM in all major web browsers today. If your software will allow that, it can't get attested.

replies(1): >>gloosx+Yb1
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26. gloosx+Yb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 07:52:40
>>whatsh+c91
I don't understand – how exactly DRM knows that I have a video-capture card recording my screen right now? The browser has no idea.

Or what prevents me from copying NYT article and re-hosting it? What DRM has to do with it?

replies(2): >>kuschk+io1 >>fiftee+3G1
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27. animuc+nl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 09:18:56
>>redeem+km
Wow! This is depressing.
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28. kuschk+io1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 09:48:11
>>gloosx+Yb1
Google's DRM today already enforces HDCP. You only see an encrypted mess in all debug tools of the browser in that case.
replies(1): >>gloosx+PY4
29. neop1x+cs1[view] [source] 2023-07-25 10:20:48
>>LispSp+(OP)
I am using various browser extensions which make browsing a better experience for me like Dark Reader to make all webs dark. Sometimes I write userscripts for TamperMonkey to add missing functionality or get rid of some annoyance. That all will probably be impossible thanks to this attestation BS. :S
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30. fiftee+3G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 12:15:19
>>gloosx+Yb1
I'm out of the loop of current DRM.

I assume it's something like the old Protected Media Path.

For example, if you try to screenshot a Netflix video all you screenshot is a dark-pinkish square, because the video is probably added by the graphics card at the last moment.

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31. exithe+SH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 12:28:27
>>benter+P21
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/products/firefox/fix-probl...

Try searching for "only chrome".

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32. JohnFe+Ia2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 14:46:18
>>jeroen+2c
Right. That's why Mozilla can't meaningfully stand up against these forces anymore. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they don't have the market strength.
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33. gloosx+PY4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 06:36:49
>>kuschk+io1
i dont need debug tools in the browser - if the bytes of encoded content are getting transmitted to the socket on my machine, there is no realistic way to prevent me from taking and replicating them, i don't see how some software inside the browser can have any effect on this, because the browser has zero idea where these bytes can go after they hit the socket. A good analogy would be filming your screen manually - computer has no idea of this filming and in no way can prevent it, because it cannot act on a real world around it, the same applies for browser, i can take a document, video or sound from any page without involing the browser
replies(1): >>kuschk+9a5
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34. kuschk+9a5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 08:12:21
>>gloosx+PY4
> because the browser has zero idea where these bytes can go after they hit the socket

The attestation uses a secure enclave in your processor with a secret key you can't access to verify that secure boot is on, you booted a signed OS, the OS is in locked-down mode, etc.

replies(1): >>gloosx+Q49
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35. accoun+fo5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 10:34:23
>>redeem+km
Worth linking this epic: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/mozilla-now-only-...
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36. gloosx+Q49[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:12:44
>>kuschk+9a5
>The attestation uses

>you can't access

Don't you see how contradictory this is?

No secure enclave of registers or hidden secret keys can help, because a person can utilize the lower-level physical world around the processor to manipulate it (e.g sending electrical currents from a programator device manually). But that is a last resort, there are simple software attacks available already to fake as many "attested" devices as needed (for the same DRM system of Android). It will only bring more jeopardy to the "integrity"

replies(1): >>kuschk+ho9
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37. kuschk+ho9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 08:57:30
>>gloosx+Q49
See that's exactly the issue why I hate this. You can always circumvent it, worst case with an electron microscope and some acid. So all it really does is prevent the average user from gaining control over their own hardware.

And for tech-minded people it doesn't fundamentally change anything, it just means that it now takes more time to do the same than before

replies(1): >>gloosx+SC9
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38. gloosx+SC9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 10:50:54
>>kuschk+ho9
True, a cat-and-mouse game going on forever. Anyways, I don't believe they can succeed in walling such a monstrosity of technologies as the web, just by controlling some parts of it, even significant parts like the browser or search. It is only something governments can do by requiring a passport scan each time you open a connection (which is closing when you eject the passport from the scanner)
replies(1): >>ninten+8Bf
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39. ninten+eAf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 23:08:00
>>gochi+H7
Buy a pixel and run GrapheneOS. That way google looses money.
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40. ninten+mAf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 23:09:08
>>whatsh+up
True but they aren't targetting browsers with user agent switchers.
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41. ninten+8Bf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 23:13:01
>>gloosx+SC9
This is why Risc-V being developed in China and other countries and exported elsewhere is ironically a good thing at the base-level of computing. The chinese computers will require China's bugs, whereas exported good will NOT have it, otherwise it won't be bought.
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