zlacker

[parent] [thread] 37 comments
1. hinkle+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:06:51
When someone says, "certain topics will get you banned" that doesn't make me judge the platform, that makes me judge the person.

People are going to assume it's something you don't want to name, if you won't name it.

replies(4): >>source+S >>screye+d1 >>redox9+x2 >>echelo+C2
2. source+S[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:13:31
>>hinkle+(OP)
Why would you judge the person because some kid somewhere is a trigger happy moderator?

What happened to thinking for yourself?

replies(1): >>hinkle+62
3. screye+d1[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:15:25
>>hinkle+(OP)
Come on, in a lot coastal discourse it is practically taboo to mention vanilla opinions that are held by 70+% of the population.

Mastodon instances are largely moderated by people from the other 30%. You are free to judge if you want. But don't pretend this is a violation of publicly accepted morals in the 1st world.

replies(7): >>antifr+k2 >>guelo+s2 >>ESMirr+A2 >>bigbil+j3 >>therea+54 >>chasin+v5 >>SSLy+ck
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4. hinkle+62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:20:49
>>source+S
> What happened to thinking for yourself?

What do you think I'm doing, right now?

Someone is invoking censorship as a reason not to adopt a new platform. No specifics, just rabble rousing. That's manipulation. Pushing back is thinking for yourself.

Or, they are being imprecise and undermining their position, in which case what I said works as advice on further conversations. Either way is thinking.

replies(1): >>pessim+ec
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5. antifr+k2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:22:14
>>screye+d1
I am having trouble imagining what you mean. Can you illustrate your point with an example opinion that is held by 70% of the population but is taboo to discuss?
replies(2): >>ploum+V4 >>murder+67
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6. guelo+s2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:22:51
>>screye+d1
"coastal" is ridiculous. American vs American hate is out of control.
replies(1): >>moreli+F3
7. redox9+x2[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:23:30
>>hinkle+(OP)
When you name something, then it becomes a flamewar about that something.

But generally speaking, anything that the US/"San Francisco" left wing ideology deems "bad" is generally unwelcome.

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8. ESMirr+A2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:23:40
>>screye+d1
It’s amusing you’re perfectly illustrating the OPs point. “Vanilla opinions” is so vague as to be completely meaningless.
9. echelo+C2[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:23:58
>>hinkle+(OP)
I'm LGBT and my spouse is trans. I don't believe you should silence anti-trans rhetoric. I believe you should engage it.

The ability for /r/conservative to ban my counter arguments is just as harmful as Mastodon shutting down the anti-trans positions.

Conversation is what moves us forward and is how we find commonality.

I grew up religious and conservative. I changed a lot of my viewpoints through friendly conversations in the internet of 2000-2010, before tumblrism, cancel culture, and censorship took hold.

If I grew up in today's world or internet, I might never have been exposed to different opinions in a non-hostile, no-judgment environment. By trying to segregate, censor, and ban we're only leading to intractable polarization. Never giving folks an opportunity to change. Never accepting that people are capable of growth.

Please let's talk with each other. Even if we disagree. You'd be surprised how effective that can be.

We're all suffering though this world together. Laugh away our differences and find the ways and the things that we share. We all hold more in common than you might think.

Love your enemy, even if they don't love you (yet).

If I could have one lasting impact on this world, it would be this message.

replies(5): >>egyptu+h4 >>ktm5j+m4 >>krapp+76 >>ohgodp+B7 >>guilyi+aF4
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10. bigbil+j3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:29:40
>>screye+d1
> vanilla opinions that are held by 70+% of the population.

Name three.

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11. moreli+F3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:32:01
>>guelo+s2
Americans used to literally own other Americans, while committing genocide against other Americans.
replies(1): >>pessim+qb
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12. therea+54[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:34:02
>>screye+d1
> vanilla opinions

Like what?

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13. egyptu+h4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:35:04
>>echelo+C2
I'm a fifty-something trans lady and I am just fucking tired of trying to change viewpoints. I just want to live my life and talk with my friends without some butthead coming in and telling me I shouldn't exist, I get enough of that by checking the news lately.

If you have the energy to politely engage people who think of you as a child molester who should be shot on sight, great! Go for it! But I have done that, and I am tired, and I do not want to do it any more. I run a Mastodon and I just want it to be a space to talk to my friends and maybe make some new ones, and thus, I block the fuck out of places I do not expect to get anything but hate from.

replies(1): >>hinkle+w5
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14. ktm5j+m4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:35:21
>>echelo+C2
As a trans woman living in a conservative area, I get where you're coming from but I seriously disagree. The hardest pill for me to swallow through all of this has been realizing that some people will never change no matter how much you engage them. The only way I maintain my sanity is to do whatever I can to reduce my exposure to that kind of thing so I don't end up engaging with it.. because it just never goes well.

I realize it's a complicated issue, and I'm never a fan of banning speech. But not all speech deserves a response.

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15. ploum+V4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:39:26
>>antifr+k2
It is funny how, in their own bubble, people assume that their opinion is held by 70% of the population while it is often the opposite (fun fact: more people voter for Hillary Clinton that Trump yet Trump voters believe that they are the majority. Same for abortion where polls showed that a clear majority of the US was pro-choice yet a very loud minority has a lot of political power)
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16. chasin+v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:42:52
>>screye+d1
> vanilla opinions that are held by 70+% of the population.

Ooh, ooh, ooh? Like what kind of "vanilla opinion?"

replies(1): >>mardif+9c
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17. hinkle+w5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:42:56
>>egyptu+h4
Common rhetoric among PoC even twenty years ago was essentially, "We're tired of being spokespeople and tutors for your problems."

Not everyone is cut out to be an educator, and I think you should have the option not to be voluntold for the job. Not just because it should be your right, but because insisting that everyone in a group can speak for that group is itself stereotyping. I think once you see that it's really hard to be patient with people who don't.

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18. krapp+76[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:46:36
>>echelo+C2
Mastodon isn't shutting down anti-trans positions, specific instances are choosing not to federate with other instances that harbor those positions. Those instances and the homophobes and transphobes are still there.

And you're free to engage the people who want to put you and your spouse on a train car in conversation all you like. Maybe you'll deprogram one or two, but you'll just help spread their propaganda to exponentially more people than you could ever help.

I have no commonality with such people and don't want to find any. I don't want to share a society with them, and I know they don't want to share one with me. I certainly don't want to debate the Jewish Question or "groomers" or race science with them on my gamedev instance.

>We're all suffering though this world together. Laugh away our differences and find the ways and the things that we share.

You know these people want you dead, right? They don't believe you have a right to exist. You and your spouse. Especially your spouse. We're not talking about a difference in belief about tax laws or support for opposing soccer teams here. "Laugh away our differences?" I'm sorry but with all due respect fuck that.

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19. murder+67[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:52:30
>>antifr+k2
86% of Americans think that police funding should increase or stay the same: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/03/before-re...

80% of Americans think that the southern border should have increased security: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/09/08/republica...

50% of Americans oppose affirmative action (with 33% approving, 16% not sure): https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/06/08/more-america...

replies(3): >>jmopp+ba >>pessim+Ma >>clipsy+xz
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20. ohgodp+B7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:57:14
>>echelo+C2
They're not looking to debate you or find common ground with you. They're looking to eradicate you, or at the very least send you back to the closet.
replies(1): >>pessim+Jb
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21. jmopp+ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:13:37
>>murder+67
None of those are really taboo to discuss: police funding has only increased in recent years, Joe Biden has been quietly upgrading security on the southern border since the start of his term, and the supreme court recently ruled against affirmative action.
replies(1): >>GolfPo+Hj
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22. pessim+Ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:17:26
>>murder+67
Nearly 70% of U.S. adults say transgender athletes should be allowed to compete only on sports teams that correspond with the sexes they were assigned at birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/americans-oppose-in...

replies(1): >>moreli+cc
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23. pessim+qb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:21:13
>>moreli+F3
That didn't really count, because they all agreed that black people and natives weren't Americans and had no rights they were bound to respect. The real oppression is when relatively wealthy upper-middle class people get criticized.
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24. pessim+Jb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:23:09
>>ohgodp+B7
That's just monstering your enemy to justify any behavior towards them.
replies(1): >>clipsy+0A
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25. mardif+9c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:26:28
>>chasin+v5
Trans people in sports? Wanting strong borders? Disagreeing with stuff like drag reading sessions?

Not American or white or whatever, just stating the obviously less widely supported stuff that may sound uncontroversial to the more terminally online.

replies(2): >>moreli+gc >>chasin+RCh
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26. moreli+cc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:26:45
>>pessim+Ma
This is obviously not taboo to discuss since every mainstream media source has been discussing it nonstop with virtually no reference to like, actual data, for over a year.
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27. pessim+ec[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:26:49
>>hinkle+62
Or they're assuming good faith in their opponents. To not know what has been censored on twitter, and that the recent interest in mastodon was a reaction to the lifting of some of that censorship, is either to be playing stupid or to actually not have the background to discuss the subject usefully.
replies(1): >>hinkle+L11
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28. moreli+gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:27:45
>>mardif+9c
> Disagreeing with stuff like drag reading sessions?

What does this mean? Drag queens shouldn't be allowed to read? Like what concrete policy are you saying they can't propose which isn't obviously overreach?

replies(1): >>mardif+4k
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29. GolfPo+Hj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 23:31:42
>>jmopp+ba
I've noticed than when people on the internet say "I'm not allowed to discuss X", what they actually mean 99% of the time is "I'm not allowed to be an abusive jerk to other participants". (The other 1% of the time, they're posting off-topic in a tightly focused forum.)
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30. mardif+4k[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 23:35:22
>>moreli+gc
To be clear it's not personal beliefs that I have, just contentious issues I could think of that are far more controversial irl versus online. Also I think the issue is the reading sessions for kids.
replies(1): >>moreli+e61
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31. SSLy+ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 23:36:18
>>screye+d1
Coastal? Like, related to beaches, tides, or some kind of environmental impact?
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32. clipsy+xz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:00:57
>>murder+67
Don't forget, in 1967 (the year in which Loving v Virginia was decided), interracial marriage had less than 20% popular support: https://news.gallup.com/poll/354638/approval-interracial-mar...
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33. clipsy+0A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:07:32
>>pessim+Jb
It's an accurate description of right-wing views: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-spe...

And no, there is no such thing as eradicating "transgenderism" without eradicating transgender people anymore than you could eradicate "blackism" without eradicating black people. It is a meaningless distinction invented to provide a paper-thin veneer over what is simply a call for mass murder.

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34. hinkle+L11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 07:34:58
>>pessim+ec
We weren't talking about twitter. We were talking about one Mastodon server defederating another for hate speech. That's not 'some topics'. That's hate speech.

If they're talking about some other kind of speech that I might actually care about, they should have mentioned it. Because the next bad one I can think of is even worse than hate speech.

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35. moreli+e61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 08:22:15
>>mardif+4k
Drag queens reading at libraries is one of those things that's absolutely more controversial online than IRL. Nobody gave a shit until Facebook and Twitter groups whipped it up as a culture war issue, and so far even conservative analysts and judges are like "wtf, this is nothing, you can't ban it" and they've had to shift to broad obscenity bans instead, which do not have popular support.
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36. guilyi+aF4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 14:13:52
>>echelo+C2
I agree with this, I think the only way we'll get answers to the most controversial and divisive issues are for people to discuss them. Especially since many viewpoints being shouted down as "anti-trans" are actually very reasonable and need more discussion.

For example, the fairness and safety issues with regards to males competing in women's sports, or the issues of safety and dignity in women's prisons when males are incarcerated there.

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37. chasin+RCh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-06 21:03:15
>>mardif+9c
Ah, yes, the bigoted ones.
replies(1): >>mardif+tJm
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38. mardif+tJm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-08 08:53:27
>>chasin+RCh
Sure, but that's besides the point. They can be bigoted and still held by a majority of people.
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