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[parent] [thread] 34 comments
1. dougmw+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-01 14:34:00
The trend of less education means less marriage is interesting. I think that tells me the root cause is that 25% of 40 year olds are not financially attractive mates. I think this speaks to a broader trend of men not being able to meet the traditional expectations of the breadwinner in an increasingly precarious economy.
replies(5): >>InCity+y1 >>segmon+W3 >>bluedi+c4 >>drumhe+F5 >>mushbi+7e
2. InCity+y1[view] [source] 2023-07-01 14:43:31
>>dougmw+(OP)
>25% of 40 year olds are not financially attractive mates.

Is this a peculiarity of the US? Income was never an issue when i got the hots for someone...especially when things turned into long-term commitment. In fact, quite the opposite.

replies(4): >>onlyre+92 >>tallda+G3 >>wonder+b4 >>dougmw+kc5
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3. onlyre+92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 14:45:57
>>InCity+y1
Having the hots and marriage are totally different things for most people, I think.
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4. tallda+G3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 14:53:06
>>InCity+y1
You're probably a man. Women care a lot about income.
replies(2): >>toomuc+R3 >>amanap+Ka
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5. toomuc+R3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 14:53:52
>>tallda+G3
And status. Which income is a component of.
6. segmon+W3[view] [source] 2023-07-01 14:54:11
>>dougmw+(OP)
less education? the US has never been more educated.
replies(2): >>xethos+va >>CountS+6e
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7. wonder+b4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 14:56:13
>>InCity+y1
How many times have you married that person you "had the hots for" assuming you are a woman?
8. bluedi+c4[view] [source] 2023-07-01 14:56:15
>>dougmw+(OP)
Maybe it also has to do with the % of females that are desirable to marry?
9. drumhe+F5[view] [source] 2023-07-01 15:04:36
>>dougmw+(OP)
Men dont really care about the income of their partner, they're more interested in physical attributes. Maybe women have set much higher standards and the majority of men dont meet those standards. Maybe men just dont want to get married?
replies(3): >>xhkkff+d9 >>lotsof+Z9 >>hospit+0t
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10. xhkkff+d9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:24:35
>>drumhe+F5
Google MGTOW to understand some people's theory.
replies(1): >>avhon1+zc
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11. lotsof+Z9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:29:00
>>drumhe+F5
Source?

I can envision a decent proportion of men, at least myself and a few I know, who would find it preferable to have a redundant source of income in the household.

Even if a woman ends up becoming a non income earning partner temporarily or permanently, having one who is capable of earning more can be a desirable trait for multiple reasons.

replies(4): >>bequan+Sa >>drumhe+Ib >>goodby+vk >>mcphag+uJ
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12. xethos+va[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:32:25
>>segmon+W3
Yeah, the gender that values education in a mate has never before, on average, attained higher levels of education. But women value education in men, and men have fallen behind.
replies(2): >>cultof+dc >>CountS+yB
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13. amanap+Ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:34:18
>>tallda+G3
In my experience, women care a lot about income when their partners can’t keep a job and they are the only ones working. I’ve seen relationships end over that. But I’m guessing that’s not what you mean.
replies(1): >>tallda+3W
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14. bequan+Sa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:35:10
>>lotsof+Z9
Mobile so don’t have a source handy, but women typically seek to marry at or slightly above the economic class they were raised in. For men, there is no identified preference like this.

Attributes like physical attractiveness and traditional positive feminine qualities are generally what men list as what they seek.

Of course, we all know of exceptions but the general patterns of what men/women look for in a partner is quite well known at this point.

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15. drumhe+Ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:39:55
>>lotsof+Z9
Source? No man I know, friends, relatives, aquaintences has ever given the income of a woman as a reason for marrying them. The primary reason has been looks or personality. Some of them have got married because of family. Never once have I encounterd anyone giving their future partners earning potential as a reason. It might be common in the group of people you mix with but not for me.
replies(2): >>onlyre+jk >>bryanr+UE
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16. cultof+dc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:43:45
>>xethos+va
> and men have fallen behind

men have been pushed down by a culture that devalues masculine traits. k-8 is dominated by female teachers who don't know how to deal with male students and exhibit strong favoritism towards female students. Additionally, higher ed strongly favors reserving educational opportunities for female students. The end result is that boys that don't come from families that strongly push for education for them get left behind as the state would rather they be out of the picture entirely.

men haven't fallen behind, Boys are being tripped and corralled into a rigged game and they are dropping out of the system

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17. avhon1+zc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:45:15
>>xhkkff+d9
Men Going Their Own Way? The internet ideology of people that have been redpilled to realize that society has been made toxic for men (by feminist women who use sex as a way to control men), and that men should reject rampant gynocentrism and avoid engaging with women, or even with society at large? That MGTOW?
replies(1): >>eska+vL1
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18. CountS+6e[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 15:52:13
>>segmon+W3
Not time trend - category trend. The dataset shows that the less education you have the less likely it is you’ll be married at 40.
19. mushbi+7e[view] [source] 2023-07-01 15:52:16
>>dougmw+(OP)
the opposite is true. The higher the education, the less likely to reproduce.
replies(1): >>hoppyh+Si1
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20. onlyre+jk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 16:24:24
>>drumhe+Ib
Contrary to popular opinion - physical attractiveness and intelligence are highly correlated: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...

Higher IQs are correlated with higher incomes, too: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230208125113.h...

Anecdata source of one - but most of my friends from college who could've ended up with many many women ended up with women that had super rich parents, and most of the women that everyone was crazy about ended up with men with rich parents.

None of them claim to have married for money - but from the outside - the odds seem to be that at least some of them probably did.

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21. goodby+vk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 16:25:30
>>lotsof+Z9
> Source?

Men. You know any?

> I can envision a decent proportion of men

You can envision it? Anyone can envision anything.

> at least myself and a few I know, who would find it preferable to have a redundant source of income in the household.

"Myself and a few I know"? Are you a man? Then you should know. What's with the awkward response?

> having one who is capable of earning more can be a desirable trait for multiple reasons.

As the OP stated, men are attracted by youth, beauty and physical traits. Women put more focus on money and status. Men are biologically programmed to want women they can breed with. Women are biologically programmed to want men who can provide for them and their offspring. It's why women want men who are taller than them and also who make more money than them.

Sure, it would be nice for a woman to have youth/beauty and money. But given a choice of a woman with youth/beauty + no money and no youth/beauty + money, most guys would choose youth/beauty + no money. I don't remember a single time anyone ever wondered about "how much a woman makes" when it comes to dating.

If you are a man, ask yourself, would you rather have an old ugly female doctor or a young attractive homeless woman. If you are a man, your lived experience should be source enough.

replies(1): >>lotsof+Ap
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22. lotsof+Ap[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 16:58:39
>>goodby+vk
There is a third option of a man simply not marrying, and still having access to sex.
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23. hospit+0t[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 17:14:37
>>drumhe+F5
I have gotten close with some female engineers, and until recently they never mentioned their dating preferences. They were explaining how a night went down

"I didn't want to approach them, he wasn't that tall, but she insisted so we did anyway. He was kind of cute until he took off his hat. His friend was country and I love country."

They explain the night, how they went to different tables and had different drinks. They exchanged phone numbers.

I was a bit bothered that they never mentioned anything I deemed important "Job/Education/etc..." Apparently a "construction safety manager".

The girl ended up mentioning that he was a big Trump supporter and that she is very liberal, I asked her how that would work with the whole 'country' thing. She said that she is always going to be working and not a stay at home mom.

And 1 month later she broke up with him.

Weird how height, hair, and 'country' was more important than job and beliefs.

replies(1): >>drumhe+8K
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24. CountS+yB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 17:51:01
>>xethos+va
I suspect that men are more likely to link education to income and opportunities - and the ROI for a lot of degrees has plummeted as tuition has increased. I don’t think women are as bothered by this and you can see this in the student loan data. 2/3 of distressed student loans in the US are owed by women.
replies(1): >>bacchu+WH1
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25. bryanr+UE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 18:05:37
>>drumhe+Ib
>No man I know, ... has ever given the income of a woman as a reason for marrying them.

that may correlate with it being considered uncouth to have such considerations in mind.

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26. mcphag+uJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 18:25:06
>>lotsof+Z9
> Source?

Well, generally men do the proposing, and as far as I am aware, most proposals are successful. So if the number of marriages are declining, then it means men are not proposing—either they are uninterested in getting married, or they are but don’t reach a point in their relationships where they believe a proposal would be successful. Not sure what the distribution of those is.

replies(1): >>lotsof+YJ
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27. lotsof+YJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 18:27:49
>>mcphag+uJ
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/middle-class-marriage-is-...

Page 82 and on have graphs:

https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jep.30.2.79

replies(1): >>mcphag+1S1
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28. drumhe+8K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 18:28:42
>>hospit+0t
The "3 Sixes", 6-pack, 6 feet tall and 6 figure salary, any two of those three tend to give you a very good chance of success.
replies(1): >>Freedo+Re1
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29. tallda+3W[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 19:33:54
>>amanap+Ka
That's the most extreme example, sure. You don't see the other common examples, of a woman struggling to stay attracted to her bf or husband that consistently makes 1/2 of what she does.. because it doesn't happen very often (outside of extremes like very high earning women).
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30. Freedo+Re1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:14:33
>>drumhe+8K
What's a fun fact is that most HN commenters fit all three of those criteria!
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31. hoppyh+Si1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 21:40:15
>>mushbi+7e
but how strongly is reproduction correlated with marriage?
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32. bacchu+WH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:04:11
>>CountS+yB
>I don’t think women are as bothered by this and you can see this in the student loan data. 2/3 of distressed student loans in the US are owed by women.

Fun fact. Student Loan Debts are considered marital property in community property states. So her debt is now our debt and may become your debt in a divorce.

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33. eska+vL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:41:39
>>avhon1+zc
You’re just strawmanning. Not contributing to the discussion.
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34. mcphag+1S1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:49:59
>>lotsof+YJ
I meant the distribution of "men who don't propose because they don't want to get married" vs. "men who don't propose because they want to get married but don't think a proposal would be accepted".
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35. dougmw+kc5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 09:07:09
>>InCity+y1
Class and income are extremely important when it comes to marriage. It’s more important for women because they are looking for stability and safety for raising kids. It’s less important for men because they are the ones expected to provide. It’s common relationship stress when the woman earns more than the man.

Of course these are generalities, but they also fall out of the game theory of dating. For a woman, choosing a partner is extremely high risk as she will bear the children, will redirect energy away from her career to raise them, and will, most of the time, end up raising the children alone if the marriage breaks up. Men don’t really have any of those concerns because there’s not the same expectation they would raise the children on their own without help. I’ve known plenty of guys who ran out on the kids and zero women who left the kids with the guy.

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