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FedEx Accused of Largest Odometer Rollback Fraud in History with Used Vans

submitted by cwwc+(OP) on 2023-06-27 12:49:17 | 491 points 279 comments
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29. primer+j7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:31:44
>>jmclnx+i6
Massachusetts I think

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...

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35. hirund+v8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:37:41
>>jmclnx+V6
Here's a highly rated one for $26

https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-OBDCheck-Bluetooth-Diagnostic...

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50. aaomid+qa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:44:59
>>jasonl+M9
It definitely wasn’t always this way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism

Not that I agree with welfare capitalism, I think it’s an unstable position and greed would always kill it. But let’s not forget that for some people, the past was definitely better than the present when it came to some economic matters. Note: I’m not excusing or wanting the bigotry of the past.

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66. bee_ri+ed[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:56:36
>>llimos+Q7
When you came, you said to me as follows : “I will give Gimil-Sin (when he comes) fine quality copper ingots.” You left then but you did not do what you promised me. You put ingots which were not good before my messenger (Sit-Sin) and said: “If you want to take them, take them; if you do not want to take them, go away!”

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/537889-ol...

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68. Crosse+Dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:58:03
>>rainco+G5
The OBD port can easily spit out a read only mileage reading which is not tampering with the recorded value in the ECU. The OBD port is supposed to be user accessible and usable by the end user and 3rd parties (at least in the EU) even though manufacturers are trying their hardest to put “non diagnostic data” behind their proprietary software and/or wireless comms. Reading the data from the OBD port isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be classed as tampering.

One of the ways tampering happens on digital dashes that read the mileage from the ECU is by putting a interceptor in between the dash and the ECU as it’s easier than reprogramming the ECU. https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ

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73. sp332+Je[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:02:59
>>sunk1s+R9
Car manufacturers are trying to lock out that kind of interface. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...
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78. huijze+If[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:06:47
>>llimos+Q7
> When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

In the late 1980s, Koch Industries stole millions of crude oil each year by instructing their employees to always measure in a way that benefited Koch Industries [1].

[1]: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/22/kochland-...

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81. bentco+Vg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:11:52
>>betaby+Pc
> and requires more hours of training than for police.

Citation? Best I could find is that Louisiana regulates floristry but doesn't mandate education (you need to take an exam). As for taking more hours of training than police I think you are conflating that fact in your head with this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cosmetologists-police-trai...

Besides, I'm not sure how you got here in a thread about how Fedex, a "big compan[y] [which] can get away with whatever" getting caught scamming people.

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100. betaby+fn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:35:26
>>bentco+Vg
> Citation?

https://www.on.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/requirements/24582...

Florist, regulated in QC, training is ~1K hours.

https://www.quebec.ca/en/government/quebec-at-a-glance/first...

training is also ~1K hours.

> Besides, I'm not sure how you got here in a thread about how Fedex, a "big compan[y] [which] can get away with whatever" getting caught scamming people.

Car sales (any many other things) are heavily regulated where I live. Also it seems regulations are not enforced if one is 'too big to fall'.

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109. sgarma+9r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:49:42
>>eatbit+Xm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt It's still a mix often times but it's totally salt in some areas still.
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125. bentle+Hv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:09:04
>>betaby+fn
I just clicked through that link you provided (jobbank.gc.ca) and there's nothing that says florists need "1k hours" of training. It's unclear that they even need to be licensed at all. I also Googled for "license quebec florist" and didn't get any meaningful results.[1]

Can you provide better citation, or point explicitly to the licensing requirements?

[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=license+f...

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129. bentco+Nw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:13:30
>>betaby+fn
> https://www.on.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/requirements/24582...

> Florist, regulated in QC, training is ~1K hours.

Is it? That page is extremely vague and doesn't seem to be specific to study hours or even education requirements.

Floristry doesn't seem to be on the list of regulated professions in Quebec: https://www.quebec.ca/emploi3/metiers-professions/metiers-re..., but I may have missed it.

130. dredmo+Ex[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:16:43
>>cwwc+(OP)
There was a brief discussion of this about five days ago, though well below the dupelicate-submission threshold, with only 5 comments:

<>>36460395 >

From Jalopnik: "FedEx Odometer Fraud" <https://jalopnik.com/fedex-named-in-what-could-be-one-of-the...>

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134. dredmo+Oz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:25:17
>>horsaw+ya
One would think that the auctioneer would benefit from maximal disclosure, as the present situation as you describe it is precisely that portrayed in Akerlof's "The Market for Lemons":

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons>

Moreover, many states require regular smog checks, at least on passenger vehicles (though I'm not sure what the situation is for commercial vehicles). These entail a comprehensive electronic data record, much of which is automatically captured from the vehicle, and which is available for sale. Auto insurance companies have used these data for years, if not decades, to set policy rates as miles driven is a principle driver (ahem) of risk.

If VINs are avaiable for the vehicles being auctioned, it's possible that a service such as CARFAX might carry such data. I suspect bulk / corporate buyers would tend to have access to such information, whilst small-time operators / individuals likely would not, which throws an additional bias into such auctions.

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147. betaby+EG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:57:55
>>bentco+Nw
De-facto florists in QC need Certificat d'aptitude professionnelle

Link in french shows 1K hours https://ecole-metiers-horticulture.cssdm.gouv.qc.ca/programm... to obtain one.

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159. delfin+MP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:36:01
>>crhull+0y
>1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want.

The complaint class action references 4 affected independent individuals as victims.

But, this entire thing is in parallel with an already ongoing lawsuit by a used vehicle broker that filed a lawsuit in 2017 over being scammed as well.

https://cdllife.com/2021/fedex-battles-lawsuit-over-millions...

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175. shagie+sW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:57:55
>>SV_Bub+BE
It gets complicated.

The magnesium chloride ice melt (which contains other compounds too) has lower toxicity than sodium chloride. That is particularly important for plants and pets.

Rust inhibitors were things in road salt spreads in the past, but it is found that they can be very harmful to aquatic life ( https://onepetro.org/NACECORR/proceedings-abstract/CORR96/Al... ) so now they're generally not used ( https://www.cga.ct.gov/2014/rpt/2014-R-0001.htm )

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176. shagie+YW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:00:03
>>moomoo+lA
Cheese To The Rescue: Surprising Spray Melts Road Ice - https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/01/21/264562529...

> This winter, a Wisconsin county is fighting icy roads with a homegrown product: liquid cheese brine. Tens of thousands of gallons of the stuff are used each year along with road salt, according to officials in Polk County.

Turning to beet juice and beer to address road salt danger - https://apnews.com/article/science-bb34e41bb95a4dfa85301621e...

> CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Looking to strike a balance between ice-free roads and clean waterways, public works departments around the country are working to cut their salt use in winter by slathering the roadways with beet juice, molasses, and even beer waste to make them safer.

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179. Alupis+l01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:14:30
>>crhull+0y
> VW emissions scandal

VW is in the business of selling vehicles, and has a real interest there to push the envelope as much as possible.

FedEx is not in the business of selling used vehicles. These vehicle sales likely don't impact their core business in the slightest - making an organization-wide scandal just silly to even think about.

Looking online, these types of "vans" sell for anywhere between $5,000 and $30,000 (with 4 digit miles)[1]. Seriously... FedEx isn't going to blink at any of this.

These class actions are always brought by bottom-feeding lawyers that use serial-plaintiffs. The reality is the class action bit will be retracted, and the lawyers, err, plaintiff will receive a "go the hell away please" payment. That's the game here...

[1] https://www.auctiontime.com/listings/trucks/auction-results/...

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214. humani+Nk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:52:47
>>CWuest+ye1
> As I understand it (sorry, I don't have a citation handy)

This is so irresponsible of you to just assert without evidence, and is so out of context to portray VW as the good guys here. They did not break the rules and flaunt regulations to make their system more efficient. They did so to cover up their failure to deliver on a new generation of "clean diesel" tech. VW thought they could do it, they invested billions in it, and they couldn't figure out how to do it without emitting way too many other pollutants. So they built their cars to lie to regulators.

The tests cover an extensive range of use cases, mostly warm running. There were two modes, one that was more fuel efficient but emitted NOx above regulations, and one that was less fuel efficient but was within NOx regulations. They detected when the tires were on suspension that simulates real-world driving for testing. They got caught by academics who wanted to test real-world vs simulated suspension.

Here is actual source, Bloomberg, which isn't some kind of environmentalist or anti-business publication: (https://web.archive.org/web/20160312181801/https://www.bloom...):

"The road tests captured a variety of conditions: high elevations up Mt. Baldy; stop-and-go urban errand-running in San Diego; freeway driving around Los Angeles. The two Volkswagens’ emissions exceeded standards by 5 to 35 times. The BMW’s didn’t. [...] The Lean NOx Trap is a system of concessions. To get cleaner exhaust, you’d need to use a squirt of fuel every few seconds to burn up nitrogen oxide. Or, in the other direction, to get better fuel efficiency, you’d need to spew out dirtier exhaust. Managing this trade-off requires a complex calibration of the onboard computer, the engine control unit, so it can adjust constantly to variables like temperature and speed and optimize both emissions and fuel usage. The trouble was, Volkswagen hadn’t been able to get its new engines to comply with the stringent U.S. standards."

The reason is they had invested in a "clean diesel" engine tech that was supposed to be their market differentiator. VW invested billions into it. Yes, it was more fuel efficient, but it was supposed to also stay within existing pollution emissions regulations. Nobody else made such big investments in clean diesel because they couldn't figure out how to make it more efficient without also emitting pollutants at much higher levels. But everybody was so bought into it that they felt they had to cover it up.

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226. kevinp+Ct1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:42:59
>>dghlsa+i11
This is incorrect. It's easy to find the actual statement required: https://eforms.com/images/2017/06/Federal-Odometer-Disclosur...

> I, ______________________ (SELLER’S NAME, PRINT) state that the odometer now reads ______________________ miles (NO TENTHS) and to the best of my knowledge that it reflects the actual mileage of the vehicle described below, unless one of the following statements is checked.

The seller is only strongly asserting what the odometer reads. If the seller doesn't know anything about that vehicle, then "to the best of [their] knowledge", that reflects the actual mileage.

Also to clarify, none of this is sworn, or "under penalty of perjury"

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235. halost+Wx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:04:53
>>betaby+EG
Your claim is untrue (that such a certificate is required for florists). The link you provided is to a vocational training program for people who want to specialize in floristry (because they want to open a business). I have a friend here in Ontario who recently went through a similar program for landscaping. It was not required, but it opened a number of job opportunities that would not have been available to them otherwise.

There are only a few jobs which have mandatory qualifications (left column in the link below) and a larger number of jobs which have voluntary qualification courses. There may be secondary requirements (e.g., to work as a butcher and get insurance, your employees must have the voluntary qualification certificate), but these are not regulated professions the way you have been incorrectly claiming on this thread.

https://www.emploiquebec.gouv.qc.ca/citoyens/developper-et-f...

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249. adolph+wQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:46:44
>>guywit+Pt1
It may have been somewhat more easy to regulate nitrogen oxide emissions in the US, but it isn't primarily a protectionist move and VW was also cheating in the EU.

Underlying U.S. and EU emission standards

The Volkswagen and Audi cars identified as violators had been certified to meet either the US EPA Tier 2 / Bin 5 emissions standard or the California LEV-II ULEV standard. Either standard requires that nitrogen oxide emissions not exceed 0.043 grams per kilometre (0.07 g/mi) for engines at full useful life which is defined as either 190,000 kilometres (120,000 mi) or 240,000 kilometres (150,000 mi) depending on the vehicle and optional certification choices.

This standard for nitrogen oxide emissions is among the most stringent in the world. For comparison, the contemporary European standards known as Euro 5 (2008 "EU5 compliant", 2009[5]–2014 models) and Euro 6 (2015 models) only limit nitrogen oxide emissions to 0.18 grams per kilometre (0.29 g/mi) and 0.08 grams per kilometre (0.13 g/mi) respectively. Defeat devices are forbidden in the EU. The use of a defeat device is subject to a penalty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

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256. taeric+8X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:23:57
>>saalwe+GV1
Words being what they are, and us not speaking the language that created this saying, I'm guessing both general ideas can be true. :D

My memory is this came from Cicero and was about a place excluding women by rule, as they pointed to the exception of a woman that was allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule seems to support both interpretations, and at least shows I got the speaker right. Not seeing that my specifics are good, though. I would not be shocked to know that I am wrong there.

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270. rainbo+yA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 03:38:09
>>guywit+Pt1
This is a pretty great presentation on dieselgate and how it worked.

https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions

271. rasz+OE2[view] [source] 2023-06-28 04:17:27
>>cwwc+(OP)
Similar, but much smaller scandal in UK involving BMW and Police.

1 BMW N57 Diesel engines like to catch fire if idled for a long time and then flogged (Oil/EGR coolant leak) https://jalopnik.com/bmws-are-bursting-into-flames-so-they-d... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637379/Widow-PC-k...

2 Police are exempt from MOD so their cars dont have documented service/odometer history.

3 Tons of dealers bought decommissioned Police BMWs and rolled odometers.

The Clocked Up Holy Engine Scandal of the UK Police BMW Fleet by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEryJeBcg-8

No more BMW Police Cars in the UK... thanks to N57 Engine Fires by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJFDdnMXKg

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