zlacker

[parent] [thread] 57 comments
1. giantg+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-24 17:00:22
It's always interesting to think about how someone somewhere is earning as much as you earn in a decade or lifetime in a single year. Also that you are that person for someone else.
replies(6): >>antist+21 >>JKCalh+Z1 >>Solven+V3 >>Brando+B7 >>HaZeus+Tf >>occams+4T
2. antist+21[view] [source] 2023-06-24 17:05:02
>>giantg+(OP)
Is it interesting?

I am that person for myself, for my first year in the workforce.

I am also that person for myself when I was studying in college.

I think it is only interesting in the case when you are performing the exact same job, and yet the compensation varies by an order of magnitude or more.

replies(1): >>rr808+Y1
◧◩
3. rr808+Y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:09:22
>>antist+21
I think the point is people earning $8/hr 40 hrs/wk 40 years = $665k total for a lifetime's work. Of course most people in the world earn much less than this.
4. JKCalh+Z1[view] [source] 2023-06-24 17:09:28
>>giantg+(OP)
I find it interesting too. Also interesting to see how I measure with regard to my parents.
5. Solven+V3[view] [source] 2023-06-24 17:23:20
>>giantg+(OP)
What I find more interesting is this:

A sole proprietor landscaper making $45-50K a year in California is paying $675 a year in annual registration fees just to keep his newish pickup truck on the road. Why newish? Because the people he's servicing trust a guy with a nicer work vehicle than a beaten down 30 year old Tacoma.

A $900k developer with the same pickup is also paying $675 a year.

Extrapolate this seemingly trivial example across literally EVERYTHING in life.

replies(8): >>weaksa+i6 >>gambit+j7 >>lotsof+q7 >>paulco+48 >>xwdv+a9 >>refurb+Lb >>chris1+Vt >>briHas+oY
◧◩
6. weaksa+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:39:33
>>Solven+V3
which is why billionaires are an indictment to our system.
replies(1): >>ben_w+e8
◧◩
7. gambit+j7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:46:20
>>Solven+V3
I don't understand your point - is it that people should pay different amount for identical amount of work based on how much they themselves are paid?
replies(1): >>Solven+aa
◧◩
8. lotsof+q7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:47:05
>>Solven+V3
I do not find that interesting. If the goal is wealth redistribution, then either a marginal income/wealth (property)/sales tax accomplishes that.

We do not have marginal sales tax rates because it is not feasible.

Marginal income tax is feasible, and so it does exist in most places.

Marginal property/wealth tax is somewhere in the middle, given the difficulties in valuing thinly traded assets, and the tremendous effort required to appraise them all the time, over and over.

replies(1): >>onlyre+B8
9. Brando+B7[view] [source] 2023-06-24 17:48:27
>>giantg+(OP)
This is a good point.

I look at 900k$ and think wow from the perspective of my very well paid job in France.

Getting 900k$ a year would bring great things to me and probably make me retire earlier. This will not be life-changing though.

And then I think about people who earn 5% of what I do and for them multiplying their income by two would probably be truly life changing for them.

And then these 900k$ do not look that wow anymore.

replies(3): >>kpw94+o8 >>dumbac+p9 >>marvin+ix
◧◩
10. paulco+48[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:52:09
>>Solven+V3
Yeah crazy. A gallon of milk costs the same if you’re a landscaper or a tech bro. Really makes ya think.
replies(2): >>pjot+T81 >>fragme+mk1
◧◩◪
11. ben_w+e8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:53:02
>>weaksa+i6
Billionaires have a whole novel extra layer above this, as their taxable income and investment preferences can be significant for local (and sometimes national) governments.

What's described here affects everyone, and is a reason to something something Gini coefficient.

Someone on $1k/year can't afford for their $50 smartphone to get damaged or stolen; on $10k/year they can't afford for their fridge to break and their food to spoil; most of us are close enough to $100k/year to not need an example; $1M/year I can't imagine, as despite my close (logarithmically) to $100k income, my expenses are closer to $10k but without the stress of low earnings.

replies(1): >>Firmwa+Hd
◧◩
12. kpw94+o8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:54:02
>>Brando+B7
For people not living there but curious about trying it out: What's a reasonable range for "very well paid job in France"? Is it all cash or is there equity?
replies(2): >>Brando+Ge >>benhur+Zq
◧◩◪
13. onlyre+B8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:55:29
>>lotsof+q7
Does anywhere in the world have a marginal property tax?

LA introduced a mansion sales tax.

Anywhere else?

My main issue with a marginal property tax is that the areas with high property values already have enough taxes generally for the things property tax covers.

Not sure at least in the US how feasible it would be to have a marginal property tax and the revenue go to the state and the Fed (or even the county's general fund in most places).

My guess is there's a 0% chance the marginal property tax could go to the Fed to reduce Federal income tax, and in most states, a low chance it could even go to the state, or even in most counties that it could go to the general fund instead of mostly to the local school district and local fire department (which are usually already funded adequately).

replies(3): >>lotsof+M9 >>vidarh+Pf >>wizofa+l91
◧◩
14. xwdv+a9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 17:58:59
>>Solven+V3
I find it more interesting that the sole proprietor landscaper doesn’t just become a developer and make $900k a year.

Extrapolate this to literally anyone making less than a developer.

replies(1): >>paulry+wb
◧◩
15. dumbac+p9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:00:27
>>Brando+B7
Are you here to just brag? Also the dollar sign goes on the other side.
replies(3): >>Brando+yd >>abwizz+9o >>pkd+tU
◧◩◪◨
16. lotsof+M9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:02:57
>>onlyre+B8
>My main issue with a marginal property tax is that the areas with high property values already have enough taxes generally for the things property tax covers.

The big issue in my opinion is defining property/wealth (not just land and cars, but also intellectual property, art, etc), and then the feasibility of appraising all of that, and then litigating those appraisals (for the populace as a whole).

Seems like it could get into quite a bit of the country’s resources going to refereeing the game, which at some point takes away from productivity.

replies(1): >>zopa+XL
◧◩◪
17. Solven+aa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:05:34
>>gambit+j7
Vehicle registration fees, like many others, are 100% a blunt money collection mechanism imposed by the government. This has nothing to do with a poor or wealthy person buying a new Playstation 5.
replies(4): >>gambit+Rc >>ipaddr+Gf >>TheCoe+Eh >>fragme+on
◧◩◪
18. paulry+wb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:12:44
>>xwdv+a9
Those skill sets aren't interchangeable.
replies(1): >>xwdv+Dw
◧◩
19. refurb+Lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:14:00
>>Solven+V3
The sole proprietor is also able to get a tax deduction on his truck that the developer can't.
replies(1): >>rafram+sj
◧◩◪◨
20. gambit+Rc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:19:41
>>Solven+aa
Who mentioned anything about vehicle registration fees? I assumed OP meant servicing and such.
replies(1): >>Solven+Qf
◧◩◪
21. Brando+yd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:23:02
>>dumbac+p9
Brag about what? Please take a moment to read my comment with understanding.

And the dollar sign goes on the side I put it: nine hundred thousand dollars. The fact that you want to write $900k is just an idea specific to the finance world (such as using parentheses for negative numbers).

Do you usually write m4, in7 or lb9?

replies(1): >>rafram+Pj
◧◩◪◨
22. Firmwa+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:23:26
>>ben_w+e8
I want to get to the point where I can pay $10k for a first class cubicle on international flights and show up well-rested instead of having to lose a whole day to feeling like crap

Or $50k to book a charter flight and just have my driver take me straight onto the tarmac, thus avoiding the airport entirely

replies(1): >>ipaddr+Of
◧◩◪
23. Brando+Ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:28:22
>>kpw94+o8
For a entry-level developer in a large French company you would aim a 50k€.

But this is just the bare salary - you will have to take off about 20-30% for various taxes. But then you get free healthcare and education, and retirement.

Some companies will have a bonus ("intéressement / participation") which can be an extra 10 to 20% once a year.

You would typically have a straight salary, no equity or something like that.

When you look at the most senior positions, this is about 130k€.

But it really depends on the city, on the industry etc. Generally speaking your salary is not that big, bt you have extra advantages (such as the social committee, a company-funded organization that will reimburse part of your vacation costs, give gifts at Christmas, ...)

replies(1): >>benhur+Dq
◧◩◪◨
24. ipaddr+Gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:33:41
>>Solven+aa
They pay for the cost of that service. This is an optional service for those who choose to register a vehicle. Charging people things based on yearly income means the richest people will pay nothing as the bulk of their income isn't realized yearly. Maybe you want to charge people by total wealth but in those cases the richest have wealth available under different names in parts of the world unauditable by a state agency. Add in the cost to determine these figures now it costs a few thousand to register a vehicle.
◧◩◪◨⬒
25. ipaddr+Of[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:34:39
>>Firmwa+Hd
Or so rich that people come to you
◧◩◪◨
26. vidarh+Pf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:34:44
>>onlyre+B8
UK has council tax bands based loosely on property value, but it's not very regularly reassessed so it's not very progressive.

Norway has a wealth tax of up to 1.1% of wealth, with discounts based on different types of wealth and a minimum deduction of ca. $150k. Discounts are based roughly on how liquid assets are. Houses etc. are valued at 25% of market value, so let's say you have a $600k house, the taxable value is $150k, which falls entirely within the minimum deduction, so most people pay very little wealth tax.

replies(1): >>fragme+Pm
◧◩◪◨⬒
27. Solven+Qf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:34:46
>>gambit+Rc
I'm the OP. I was specifically referring to registration.
28. HaZeus+Tf[view] [source] 2023-06-24 18:34:49
>>giantg+(OP)
One of the most compelling lyrics I've ever heard, that has stuck with me for about a decade now, is Chris Brown's, "I get what you get in 10 years in 2 days."
replies(1): >>deebos+Ag
◧◩
29. deebos+Ag[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:40:10
>>HaZeus+Tf
For me, on the same track, I'd have to go with Busta's verse when he's all "cuz it doesn't matter cuz I'm gonna da da da da"

(I jest. I just really like that song's beat & Busta's verse in terms of sheer speed & enunciation & crispness in staying on beat.)

replies(1): >>HaZeus+vI
◧◩◪◨
30. TheCoe+Eh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:47:44
>>Solven+aa
Vehicle registration fees are a way of offsetting a small part of the massive subsidies the government gives to vehicles. If anything, they should be much higher for everyone.
replies(1): >>ilyt+br
◧◩◪
31. rafram+sj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 18:58:51
>>refurb+Lb
Only if he uses it for work (exclusively for work, if you ask the IRS). And he’s paying double in payroll taxes - sole proprietors/self-employed workers pay 15%, employees pay 7.5%.
replies(1): >>refurb+ST
◧◩◪◨
32. rafram+Pj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:01:45
>>Brando+yd
Dollar sign goes before the number, cent sign goes after, other units go after: $7, 7¢, 7 lbs. You can’t pretend convention doesn’t exist just because it’s weird! That’s why it’s convention and not common sense.
◧◩◪◨⬒
33. fragme+Pm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:24:45
>>vidarh+Pf
and speeding tickets! In parts of Scandinavia, the speeding tickets fine is based on your income, not a flat fee, so if you're a bank manager you pay more for the parking ticket vs if you're a poor student. The record is €121,000 for being caught going 20 over the limit by a multimillionaire.
◧◩◪◨
34. fragme+on[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:28:57
>>Solven+aa
> a blunt money collection mechanism imposed by the government

Do you mean tax? I think you mean a tax, on owning a car. Nothing promised in life but death and taxes.

◧◩◪
35. abwizz+9o[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:33:56
>>dumbac+p9
imho most countries on earth use the format: [scalar] [si-prefix] [unit]
◧◩◪◨
36. benhur+Dq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:50:18
>>Brando+Ge
> For a entry-level developer in a large French company you would aim a 50k€.

> When you look at the most senior positions, this is about 130k€.

You're being generous here. A new grad in France in engineering or development gets more often in the 40k€. The most senior positions in most companies plateau around 90k€.

In some companies in Paris it's higher, but that's the exception.

replies(1): >>Brando+Q62
◧◩◪
37. benhur+Zq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:52:43
>>kpw94+o8
At 62k€ before taxes you're in the 10% top earners in the country. That's about 41-47k€ after taxes depending on your situation.
◧◩◪◨⬒
38. ilyt+br[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 19:53:50
>>TheCoe+Eh
Nope, that's idiotic.

If you want them to pay, tax the fuel and consumables like tyres, or put a tax based on how hard is to recycle the car once it hits the scrapper. Bit more complex with EVs I admit, but making someone pay just for keeping car even if they use it once a week is silly.

Yearly fee should be proportional to legalese required to keep it registered (paying wages), not much more.

◧◩
39. chris1+Vt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 20:16:35
>>Solven+V3
I don't think that's a fair example. I'm not sure what it's like to run a small business in California. But the answer to that situation is progressive taxation, and California has one of the most progressive tax systems in the US. https://taxfoundation.org/which-states-have-most-progressive...
replies(1): >>Solven+1v
◧◩◪
40. Solven+1v[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 20:26:15
>>chris1+Vt
Punitively high static costs of living and costs of doing business have profoundly cascading effects on people. Progressive tax rates have absolutely nothing to do with that.
◧◩◪◨
41. xwdv+Dw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 20:42:15
>>paulry+wb
There is very low barrier to entry for being a developer. The only thing separating an unskilled individual and a developer is learning time.
replies(1): >>paulry+ER
◧◩
42. marvin+ix[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 20:48:03
>>Brando+B7
I'd call "may retire, or work on whatever you want for the rest of your life, after a few years of saving" life-changing.
replies(1): >>Brando+g72
◧◩◪
43. HaZeus+vI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 22:30:08
>>deebos+Ag
That track really goes hard, and Busta's verse is always a treat lol
◧◩◪◨⬒
44. zopa+XL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 22:59:01
>>lotsof+M9
We already have to appraise most of that anyhow, for capital gains tax purposes.

Though not really for the population as a whole: the majority of people don’t have all that much in the way assets. The proposals that get floated in the US don’t kick in until your wealth is in the tens of millions.

replies(1): >>lotsof+WM
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
45. lotsof+WM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 23:06:23
>>zopa+XL
Capital gains taxes do not require any appraisal. They only apply when a gain is recognized, so is simply sale price minus purchase price times tax rate.

Capital gains taxes are income taxes. Property/wealth taxes are taxes paid based on the “market” price of an asset just for owning it (presumably society provides for its security and environment in which it became valuable and will continue to be valuable).

◧◩◪◨⬒
46. paulry+ER[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 23:46:11
>>xwdv+Dw
People have different thresholds and capabilities. IME even if they could grind through the learning curves most don't have the desire or logical reasoning skills to be even mediocre programmers. Keep in mind too that it's still culturally uncool, despite a few bubbles of nerd hype.
replies(1): >>xwdv+zS
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
47. xwdv+zS[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-24 23:56:35
>>paulry+ER
Those are myths that developers use to gatekeep the software industry.

You don’t need a special mind to be a programmer, you just need to have a willingness to do this work. Which many people don’t.

replies(1): >>fragme+Sk1
48. occams+4T[view] [source] 2023-06-25 00:02:13
>>giantg+(OP)
> you are that person for someone else

Especially if you're American. Gallup [1] reports:

> The median annual household income worldwide is $9,733, and the median per-capita household income is $2,920

Even among developed nations, Americans get paid more.

[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-househo...

◧◩◪◨
49. refurb+ST[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 00:08:48
>>rafram+sj
Yes, it would have to be a full time work vehicle.

And sure they are paying double payroll tax, but they also get to deduct all their expenses associated with employment (customer dinners, internet, computer equipment, mileage to customers, etc).

◧◩◪
50. pkd+tU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 00:15:24
>>dumbac+p9
Currencies are formatted differently in different locales, even foreign ones.
◧◩
51. briHas+oY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 00:58:15
>>Solven+V3
Don't forget, however, that the $45K landscaper probably pays zero in Federal taxes, while the 900K dev (assuming it was all cash, which it isn't) is losing a third of that to Fed taxes alone, and tons more to State and local.

I'm not saying the highly-paid developer is hurting, but the better question is why does it cost $675/year to register a vehicle in CA? Our income tax system is already highly progressive, so why do we have all these other stealth taxes that hurt low incomes the most.

◧◩◪
52. pjot+T81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 03:14:37
>>paulco+48
To add, a billionaire consumes just as much milk as someone making 40k
◧◩◪◨
53. wizofa+l91[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 03:21:06
>>onlyre+B8
There's tiered levels of what's called "stamp duty" in Australia (at least some states anyway), which is a tax charged on all property purchases paid by the buyer. And some council rates (effectively a type of property tax) are differential, based on the type & value of your property.
◧◩◪
54. fragme+mk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 06:29:09
>>paulco+48
Does it? how do you even price a gallon milk of organic raw unpasteurized fresh from the grass-fed cow that the billionaire has on the estate comapred to a gallon of milk a poor person would buy from something as pedestrian as a supermarket?
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
55. fragme+Sk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 06:35:57
>>xwdv+zS
There is an intellectual horsepower that is needed that not everyone has. The position that I'm stating is that not everyone is smart enough to learn to do, say, Calculus. It's not a matter of motivation and discipline, some people simply are smarter than others. There are other kinds of smarts than logic and spacial reasoning though, and people that are good in one area aren't always good in all the others.

But you're absolutely right - don't gatekeep writing software. It's not that hard and everyone should have access to that realm, even if they don't use it.

◧◩◪◨⬒
56. Brando+Q62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 14:35:31
>>benhur+Dq
Yes, it really depends on the company and place. Mine is in the Paris region and this are the levels I hire at.
◧◩◪
57. Brando+g72[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-25 14:37:45
>>marvin+ix
Twice my salary will not allow me to retire much earlier and sustain my level of living. Maybe ay 1M€/year that would be doable.
replies(1): >>marvin+Jga
◧◩◪◨
58. marvin+Jga[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 23:04:51
>>Brando+g72
If you don't increase your standard of living, it will. (Or the other caveats of course; assuming you're not already close to retirement, impending economic catastrophe or whatever).

Doubling salary post-tax will at the very least put you at a 50% savings rate, and that yields a time from zero to financial independence of 16.5 years. Assuming historically-similar stock market returns and a safe withdrawal rate of 4%. This relationship does not depend on absolute numbers beyond those stated above, only savings rate.

Most likely you'd not be starting from zero and having a positive savings rate already. Whether you'd be comfortable doing this is a different question. Many would never be, and hence never completely comfortable retiring.

[go to top]