zlacker

[parent] [thread] 33 comments
1. raydev+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-31 18:24:46
> If they want more ads, they can change the APIs to inject them.

Reddit wants freedom to arbitrarily change the design of their app and placement of ads, etc. Ads are a huge (primary?) source of revenue for them.

If they are tethered to supporting third party clients, it's harder to make reasonable estimates of how many captive users will see ads or new features.

Reddit could enforce ad presentation in third party clients, but to appease advertisers Reddit has to make guarantees around visibility. It's not enough to check if third parties are calling the correct API, they will actually need to regularly audit all third party clients.

It really isn't worth the time or effort if you can just charge third parties the cost to cover loss of ad views.

replies(6): >>pauldd+T >>london+R1 >>kodah+l8 >>chongl+e9 >>Wirele+md >>aaomid+Ze
2. pauldd+T[view] [source] 2023-05-31 18:27:42
>>raydev+(OP)
Exactly.

Same reason why Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, etc. don't have alternative clients.

Nothing unusual.

Reddit is proceeding along the well-trodden path to monetization optimization.

replies(2): >>rvz+l4 >>atraac+0M1
3. london+R1[view] [source] 2023-05-31 18:31:00
>>raydev+(OP)
It does seem fair to charge third parties approximately the same in ad revenue that you would have gotten from the same users on a first party app.

Then the third party app can choose between adding their own ads, or charging a subscription.

replies(1): >>thetur+Xf
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4. rvz+l4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 18:40:08
>>pauldd+T
Yes. I don't see how this is a problem. It is their service which is subject to change at anytime. Either make money and pay for access to the API or shutdown.

Realistically, it was only a matter of time. Also predicted here: [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34447084

replies(1): >>pierat+7K
5. kodah+l8[view] [source] 2023-05-31 18:54:19
>>raydev+(OP)
There's an obvious solution here, which is to stop participating on platforms that are ad-funded. Charging user subscriptions and fees to businesses should be sufficient to cover costs. If it's not, maybe it shouldn't exist.
replies(1): >>qwytw+cr
6. chongl+e9[view] [source] 2023-05-31 18:57:22
>>raydev+(OP)
you can just charge third parties the cost to cover loss of ad views

Except that's not what Reddit is doing here. They're charging 3rd party clients ~21X what they lose in ad views, pricing them completely out of the market.

replies(3): >>raydev+ef >>giobox+jg >>pauldd+Rr
7. Wirele+md[view] [source] 2023-05-31 19:15:08
>>raydev+(OP)
> Reddit wants freedom to arbitrarily change the design of their app and placement of ads, etc. Ads are a huge (primary?) source of revenue for them.

And they do. Over time they have become less and less distinguishable from post of humans.

I wonder what's going to happen with Apollo.

And what about my script to randomize my posts after a while? Yea, it doesn't do a lot, but still...

8. aaomid+Ze[view] [source] 2023-05-31 19:21:12
>>raydev+(OP)
> It really isn't worth the time or effort if you can just charge third parties the cost to cover loss of ad views.

I really want to be the fly in the room looking at their grafana for monthly active users and see what happens to it in the coming months.

I’m someone with ADHD and obsessive behavior is kinda one of the main symptoms of it. I think with this change, it’s not going to be hard for someone like me to drop it.

I suspect that because of these changes, Reddit is also going to make it harder for search engines to index them - which is going to further reduce how useful Reddit is for information discovery.

This is going to hurt reddit, and I personally don’t think the growth is going to be as strong as it has been once they take these actions. Social media sites depend on their users, and arguably only a small portion of their users create content. And a smaller portion that than create useful content. Once you’ve pissed off and pushed away that small %, you’re not recovering.

I’m guessing this is some decisions made by MBAs who have learned some theoretical stuff, but don’t realize their courses haven’t really covered businesses like Reddit, Twitter, StackOverflow etc. They’re in for a rude awakening.

Remember that Tumblr effectively died once they made some decisions.

replies(1): >>raydev+Ag
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9. raydev+ef[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:21:50
>>chongl+e9
A big claim like this requires a source and not handwavy estimates from the person who is impacted by this change (and upset for good reason!).

Otherwise I will ignore this claim because we simply don't know what ad revenue per user is, and we don't know what Reddit's projected future revenue per user is, which I would also expect to be covered by this pricing.

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10. thetur+Xf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:24:45
>>london+R1
Why not let users bring their own keys? I wouldn't mind paying $2-3 to use Apollo. Apollo has to also pay 30% of their revenue to Apple so their subscription fee will be way higher and not feasible for most users.
replies(1): >>raydev+th
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11. giobox+jg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:25:37
>>chongl+e9
This is a story practically as old as the internet at this point. Grow with open API and third party client ecosystem, but ultimately shut the hatches and revert to single in-house client stacks to maximize control of the user experience and advertising opportunities. Mainly the 2nd part.

To look to the Twitter example, even when I used a third party Twitter client before Elon came onboard, old Twitter were regularly playing silly games with issuing auth tokens to third party clients, for all of the same reasons.

At this stage I view third party clients as nice to have for major free web service APIs, with the expectation one day it will probably stop working. Reddit doesn't owe anyone a public API, as much as I will miss third party clients (big Narwhal user here).

replies(2): >>surgic+Ck >>heywha+Tn
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12. raydev+Ag[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:26:28
>>aaomid+Ze
> Social media sites depend on their users, and arguably only a small portion of their users create content

What evidence do you have that a majority of these users are not already using the first party app?

replies(1): >>aaomid+3j
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13. raydev+th[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:29:59
>>thetur+Xf
This also seems like the most reasonable solution to me, the guy who is generally supportive of Reddit trying to make money.

But having worked on platforms like this, this solution opens up yet another support vector. A cost that works for the most potential buyers may not be high enough to actually pay for support requests.

replies(1): >>thetur+Uj
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14. aaomid+3j[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:35:06
>>raydev+Ag
A gut feeling. I don’t have access to their internals. It’s just a guess from my side.

I guess if they go through with it we’ll see what impact it has.

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15. thetur+Uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:39:53
>>raydev+th
That's a good point. Apollo does charge a one-time fee to create posts. They also have a subreddit so the community offers support. I think Apollo should pivot into a feed app that connects to Reddit, Twitter, RSS feeds, Substack, etc. and lets users bring their own keys.
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16. surgic+Ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:42:32
>>giobox+jg
> Reddit doesn't owe anyone a public API.

And maybe they will soon learn that they are not owed an audience.

replies(1): >>giobox+6x
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17. heywha+Tn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 19:56:13
>>giobox+jg
difference: Twitter's native web clients work, do not force you to go to an app, and are feature complete.
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18. qwytw+cr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:08:23
>>kodah+l8
People generally tend to use the platforms which other people are using and it's virtually impossible to build an audience unless you're "free".
replies(2): >>nologi+Lz >>Fullst+gQ
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19. pauldd+Rr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:10:42
>>chongl+e9
> ~21X what they lose in ad views

Credible citation needed

EDIT: Okay I see the 20x figure in the article

replies(2): >>SSLy+7G >>chongl+9L
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20. giobox+6x[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:32:12
>>surgic+Ck
Maybe, but I'd still take the other side of this bet sadly. Is there any data on usage rates for third party Reddit clients? Anecdotally, I don't know anyone outside of tech who would even notice this change, really.
replies(3): >>Cogito+Ky >>surgic+7A >>8organ+zN
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21. Cogito+Ky[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:39:06
>>giobox+6x
Wouldn't that mean there's no good business case for Reddit to do this in the first place?
replies(1): >>giobox+jz
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22. giobox+jz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:41:30
>>Cogito+Ky
Debatable - supporting a small number of users on the public API may be a legitimate technical debt issue, and a running cost as the API can't change without a lot of documentation, release planning to support all those third party stakeholders etc. Your future internal work has to remain compatible with legacy design choices if you don't want to shutdown/change the existing public end points - the list of issues has potential to be pretty big. Public APIs by their nature can't introduce major change too often without upsetting existing communities.

If the API is solely for your own consumption, this can be simpler, and of course third party clients are harder to monetize as the kinds of ads you can serve are going to be restricted to what you can force a third party client to receive and render.

If the number of users on third party clients is really low, all of the above can carry more weight in internal business case style discussions too.

replies(1): >>Cogito+EC
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23. nologi+Lz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:44:26
>>qwytw+cr
An obvious way to fund ad-free platforms is as a public good / utility.

Nowadays with the brain damage that has been inflicted by adtech social media over decades it is hard to imaging mass adoption of such a publicly funded outlet. People have become literally social media junkies. Unless you do a tiktok like race to the bottom you can't disrupt the incumbents.

But establishing the principle is important even if its a small audience. 2% of billions is still a large population. Just like public TV being typically of higher quality (where it exists) such platforms could be really interesting, worthwhile places.

If the experiment succeeds one can start thinking of introducing user fees and other funding mechanisms and eventually maybe restoring sanity and delegating the targeted adtech industry in the darkest corner of hell where it belongs.

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24. surgic+7A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 20:45:54
>>giobox+6x
Reddit was the only thing that resembles social media I ever used. Was a long time RiF user, as I absolutely hated the default interface. Even moderated a couple of subreddits back in the day (although I sort of dropped Reddit in the past couple of years, so I may be out of the loop).

My fellow mods and all prominent users I interacted with (the vast majority of them not from tech as it was not a tech focused community) were all well aware of 3rd party clients, and many used them.

This is very anecdotal, but amongst Reddit more "intense" user base, I would be surprised if 3rd party client usage was low.

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25. Cogito+EC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 21:00:11
>>giobox+jz
Seems to me just better to entirely stop supporting the public api than to make the costs so ridiculously high. I mean then you're _still_ supporting it, yet you've basically scared almost all customers away. Charging a ridiculously high amount seems maybe like the worst approach of all.
replies(1): >>giobox+KQ2
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26. SSLy+7G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 21:20:12
>>pauldd+Rr
Conjecture only but above in this thread
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27. pierat+7K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 21:42:28
>>rvz+l4
> Either make money and pay for access to the API or shutdown.

I agree. And I think people should also keep in mind that OSes also have APIs as well, and should be wary of systems that try to prevent user freedom.

Then again, I've been running Linux for ages now. And I don't have to worry about anti-user garbageware on a forced update coming my way, or updates that de-feature my system.

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28. chongl+9L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 21:46:52
>>pauldd+Rr
That comes right from the article.
replies(1): >>raydev+711
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29. 8organ+zN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 21:59:10
>>giobox+6x
On Google Play I see 100M+ downloads of the official Reddit app. 5M+ downloads of Reddit is Fun, 1M+ each for Boost, Bacon, Sync, and Relay. Many more in the 100K+ range. Thats maybe 10% at most.

I wonder how many power users, heavy users, or content generating users use unofficial apps. The passive lurkers are great for ad revenue, but the people who comment make the site worth browsing.

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30. Fullst+gQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 22:14:19
>>qwytw+cr
I feel like this is Conway's Law at play. People would create high quality paid apps if the users that want to pay for them could find them, but if somebody makes something that's perfect for you, how do you discover that it even exists? The organizational structure of the web is the problem.

Google and social media platforms have shaped the web to be entirely advertisement driven. If they were capable of showing you things you wanted to buy, without the creators paying to be seen, they'd never make any money.

Almost anything you ever want to do, someone else has already done well, but despite that, it's hard to find snippets of code you can include in your projects. It's easier to just write it all yourself. If the usefulness of ChatGPT is an indicator of anything, it should be an indicator of how much is out there that you never get to see. The sad part is realizing that that's intentional.

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31. raydev+711[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-31 23:18:29
>>chongl+9L
1. It's a reddit post, not an article

2. It's the OP's assertions and estimations as an outsider, it's not based on any insights.

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32. atraac+0M1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-01 08:19:49
>>pauldd+T
I feel like there's a major difference here. Services you mentioned never really had any third party clients, while Reddit has pretty much built itself upon them.
replies(1): >>pauldd+TU2
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33. giobox+KQ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-01 15:48:08
>>Cogito+EC
I think you've probably described exactly whats happening - they do want to stop supporting the public API, but only for third party clients. There are other API access use cases they want to support. If the pricing kills third party clients but not the new use cases, that seems like a design choice to me.

They would instead rather charge far more money for data access for things like AI training etc, Twitter have also made similar changes to their own API to prioritize high bills for AI training use cases, not third party clients. That's at least how I see this change. The high pricing for these customers also removes the need to worry about the ad tech situation as is the case in the third party clients - you can just offer them an ad free feed at these prices for the training requirements.

I suspect the internal at Reddit desire to have less third party clients may well predate the AI discussion too, given almost all companies in this position eventually want to wind down those clients as history has shown again and again, for all of the reasons discussed in this thread.

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34. pauldd+TU2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-01 16:02:19
>>atraac+0M1
"built itself upon them" is a stretch.

The difference is really that Reddit was relatively late in a concerted effort to monetize.

But it winds up at the same place regardless.

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