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[parent] [thread] 44 comments
1. jjalle+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-12 12:19:54
Both should suffer serious consequences IMO. Boeing more so.
replies(1): >>akudha+v1
2. akudha+v1[view] [source] 2023-05-12 12:27:50
>>jjalle+(OP)
Yes, but 20 years for this dude is a bit excessive, no? Especially when nobody was killed or injured?
replies(4): >>wartij+c2 >>goda90+e6 >>ufmace+g7 >>jjalle+O9
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3. wartij+c2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 12:31:24
>>akudha+v1
The 20 years is not for crashing his plane, but for "one count of destruction and concealment with the intent to obstruct a federal investigation"
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4. goda90+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 12:53:51
>>akudha+v1
If you intentionally light a building on fire with the potential to kill a bunch of people and destroy a bunch of property, how much lesser should the arson sentence be if someone puts the fire out quickly, preventing loss of life?

A plane crash can cause a wildfire.

replies(1): >>byyyy+wy
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5. ufmace+g7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 12:59:42
>>akudha+v1
He didn't get 20 years, that's just the maximum permitted penalty for the crime he committed. The article title cites it as clickbait.

It's rather irritating. The law was made with a flexible range of punishments to permit the judge of any particular case to use discretion when determining an appropriate punishment. The maximum permitted is thus rather high. So now every article written about the subject lazily cites "up to 20 years", and thus everyone reading those articles gets the impression that he's actually likely to get 20 years for this incident.

replies(3): >>byyyy+yi >>nirimd+7p >>lazyan+LA
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6. jjalle+O9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 13:11:53
>>akudha+v1
That’s the maximum. He’ll get something less than that. He could have killed lots of people in a bad enough fire.
replies(1): >>byyyy+cs
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7. byyyy+yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 13:50:22
>>ufmace+g7
The maximum permitted should be zero years. Any jail time for this dumb stunt is overboard. There just needs to be a huge ass fine and revocation of pilots license.

I point my car at a wall and drive into it on purpose for views... And suddenly that's a possibility of jail time? That's crazy.

There needs to be a minimum number of permitted years when death is involved with clear negligence. Sadly there isn't any our court systems use max permitted years to pick and choose who they can punish. Dumb kid who crashes his plane on purpose versus safety inspector who Actually killed hundreds of people?

There is a clear disconnect here.

replies(2): >>ngcc_h+xk >>pandem+OD
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8. ngcc_h+xk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 13:57:41
>>byyyy+yi
There could be people … can start a fire … your wall will not.

Also whilst there can be mitigated circumstance you cannot argued for 0 max. There is a crime, there could be danger … 0 max meant anyone officially can do this without consequences?

replies(2): >>byyyy+qn >>troyvi+Xu
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9. byyyy+qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:07:30
>>ngcc_h+xk
No thats just Hollywood. In general a crashed car or small plane crumbles on impact. It doesn't explode in a ball of fire. A forest fire is very unlikely here.

When you point your car at a wall and drive into that wall you ALSO cannot argue for 0 max danger of death for an innocent bystander.

But the probability of a person dying is so low we know there is no danger for murder or death at all. It's just really stupid.

Of course there needs to be consequences. A loss of pilots license and a huge ass fine. Jail time is crazy. You know how jail will ruin a person's entire life right? Even a month of jail time is in certain ways hangs on your record like a life sentence. It's too much.

replies(2): >>vinayp+XN >>tiberi+M71
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10. nirimd+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:13:47
>>ufmace+g7
Yes it is better to say "he can be sentence to no more than 20 years if found guilty". The 20 years is just a limitation on the court's discretion: hindering a federal investigation is never so bad that a person should be sentenced to life in prison or death or a 32 year term. But it might bad enough that 16 weeks or 30 months or 19 years is appropriate depending on specific facts.

And when the court does sentence a person for a certain offense, it should compare the specific facts of the case to the worst possible case, the one that would warrant 20 years, and if this is somewhat less than the worst possible case, then to sentence them to an appropriately shorter term.

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11. byyyy+cs[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:28:07
>>jjalle+O9
Nah. A fire is unlikely here.
replies(1): >>shagie+YO
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12. troyvi+Xu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:43:34
>>ngcc_h+xk
There are plenty of other consequences to levy besides incarceration. One aspect of his punishment might be to force him to produce several PSAs about the dangers of wagging the dog on his youtube account.

Or you could waste the opportunity and throw the dude in jail, almost ensuring he's never a productive member of society again. That's the norm in the "land of the free"[1]

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarcera...

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13. byyyy+wy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:59:49
>>goda90+e6
No this is Hollywood making you think that. Car crashes and small plane crashes result in metal debris, not exploding balls of fire like Hollywood likes to depict.

In general the concept of starting a fire and a crashing small plane are orthogonal concepts. What happened with that plane is not arson at all.

replies(1): >>HeyLau+MO
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14. lazyan+LA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 15:12:30
>>ufmace+g7
For reference, in Spain, the maximum penalty iirc is 20 years (multiple murders, whatever). (Cunninghaning this one)
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15. pandem+OD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 15:28:54
>>byyyy+yi
This is an utterly bizarre take. Just because he didn't hurt anyone doesn't mean he couldn't have. He could have started a wildfire, his plane could have crashed into hikers, he could have hurt himself and required a publicly funded rescue effort. It's like you're trying to argue that we shouldn't have rule of law??? This kind of prosecution is in place to create a disincentive to doing things that could threaten life, public property, etc.

And anyway, fines only penalize poor people. Someone who can afford to AIRLIFT A PLANE and disassemble it would not be disincentivized by a fine.

replies(1): >>byyyy+ZH
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16. byyyy+ZH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 15:46:58
>>pandem+OD
Should someone who runs a car into an empty wall be charged with jail time? No.

It's not bizarre at all. The bizarre part here is your stringing of logic to try to transform this into a crime related to murder.

First off he crashed the plane deliberately into empty forest. There's no hikers in the place he crashed it, he knows that.

Second small planes or cars don't explode in a ball of flames when they crash. That's just movie magic. What actually happens is the car or plane becomes metal debris. That's it. A fire and a crashed car or small plane are completely orthogonal concepts. Might as well arrest people who make bouncing balls because the bouncing ball might accidentally smack the trigger of a gun and kill someone.

What's bizarre here is your post says I'm trying to completely eliminate rule of law when I never said that. Why lie straight to my face? What's the point? It's bizarre. You're the one twisting the rationale to fit your convenient narrative. Please be more logical with your reasoning.

The punishment should fit the crime. A huge fine and revoke the pilots license. That's it. Ruining his life with jail time does not fit the crime at all. If he's rich, then increase the fine... that simple.

replies(2): >>ChoGGi+NM1 >>pvalde+R74
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17. vinayp+XN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:12:37
>>byyyy+qn
You know having a plane crash onto them ran ruin a person's entire life, right?
replies(1): >>byyyy+DR
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18. HeyLau+MO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:16:47
>>byyyy+wy
You seem pretty hung up on this "exploding balls of fire" thing while ignoring that he's crashing a gas-powered vehicle, likely rupturing its fuel tanks and supply lines in close proximity to hot exhaust metal.

You don't need "exploding balls of fire" to create a disaster.

replies(1): >>byyyy+GP
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19. shagie+YO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:17:38
>>byyyy+cs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Rafael_Wilderness#Climate

> Rain is extremely rare in the summer, and dry lightning from the occasional thunderstorms can start fires.

https://lpfw.org/san-rafael-wilderness-50-years-of-preservin...

> Wildfire frequency is an increasing concern in the San Rafael Wilderness. Over the past fifty years, three wildfires have together burned nearly the entire wilderness area, beginning with the 1966 Wellman Fire, the 1993 Marre Fire, the 2007 Zaca Fire, and the 2009 La Brea Fire. Overly-frequent fire in chaparral can permanently alter the ecosystem, depleting the seed bank and making it prone to invasions of non-native weeds.

replies(1): >>byyyy+1Q
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20. byyyy+GP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:21:10
>>HeyLau+MO
I'm hung up on it because it's true.

When's the last time you seen a car light up on fire during an accident? Never because the chances of it happening are basically negligible.

replies(2): >>HeyLau+e11 >>vdqtp3+u51
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21. byyyy+1Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:22:43
>>shagie+YO
Good sources. But a crashed small plane is unlikely to start a fire anymore than a car accident will go up in flames (basically never happens).

Starting a fire or crashing a small plane/car are completely orthogonal situations.

Your sources point to weather/climate as the causal source of wild fires.

replies(1): >>shagie+GR
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22. byyyy+DR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:29:17
>>vinayp+XN
But what this have to do with a plane deliberately into an area known to be Devoid of people?

Nothing. So why even say this? Makes no sense to me.

replies(1): >>jamesh+3Y
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23. shagie+GR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:29:21
>>byyyy+1Q
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/27/plane-...

> Small-airplane fires have killed at least 600 people since 1993, burning them alive or suffocating them after crashes and hard landings that the passengers and pilots had initially survived, a USA TODAY investigation shows. The victims who died from fatal burns or smoke inhalation often had few if any broken bones or other injuries, according to hundreds of autopsy reports obtained by USA TODAY.

> Fires have erupted after incidents as minor as an airplane veering off a runway and into brush or hitting a chain-link fence, government records show. The impact ruptures fuel tanks or fuel lines, or both, causing leaks and airplane-engulfing blazes.

> Fires also contributed to the death of at least 308 more people who suffered burns or smoke inhalation as well as traumatic injuries, USA TODAY found. And the fires seriously burned at least 309 people who survived, often with permanent scars after painful surgery.

And while that is about dangers for an occupant it should be noted that a fire from a small airplane crash is not a rare occurrence.

---

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/students/flighttest...

> Aircraft fires often occur following forced landings, and the result is often more dangerous than the forced landing itself. The sad truth is that most light aircraft fuel systems are not designed to withstand crash impacts, and they often fail during a forced landing. Spilled fuel and hot crash components often result in a fuel-fed inferno.

Note the word often there.

replies(1): >>byyyy+9X
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24. byyyy+9X[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:51:53
>>shagie+GR
Words, qualitative descriptions and numbers with no context can exaggerate reality. That is the meat of your sources.

If you take a look at the numbers, only a ratio of 0.04 accidents result in a post-impact fire. It's rare.

As you suggested, I noted the word "often," in return please note 0.04.

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25. jamesh+3Y[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 16:56:05
>>byyyy+DR
When you get out of a plane that’s still flying you stop having any say in where that plane goes. How certain was he of where it might land? What if he misjudged and the plane had kept going much further than he expected? He had nudged it into a dive… but then he got out, changing the center of gravity of the plane - how did he know that wouldn’t trim the plane’s nose up and send it gliding off well beyond his target?
replies(1): >>byyyy+ab1
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26. HeyLau+e11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:15:38
>>byyyy+GP
Early March, I think? Sometime this year, anyway.
replies(1): >>byyyy+781
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27. vdqtp3+u51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:33:20
>>byyyy+GP
Cars don't have wings full of fuel and are built to crash, not built for minimal weight
replies(1): >>byyyy+h81
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28. tiberi+M71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:41:58
>>byyyy+qn
You seem awfully hung up on the Hollywood effects being overblown. Yes, this is true and no one is arguing against it. However, even a small spark can start a forest fire. Thinking you're safe just because there is no explosion is wildly irresponsible.

Anyone who intensionally crashes a huge hunk of metal into pubic land, causing a significant hazard, and exposing the public to stupid risks for "views" absolutely deserves significant jail-time

replies(2): >>byyyy+qk1 >>byyyy+7l1
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29. byyyy+781[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:43:14
>>HeyLau+e11
Ok, but you get my point. It's rare. Most people haven't seen this ever.
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30. byyyy+h81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:43:35
>>vdqtp3+u51
The actual data says that post crash fires are rare.
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31. byyyy+ab1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 17:56:40
>>jamesh+3Y
All good points, except he deliberately crashed it at a specific location. He carried out an action with intention and that intention was fulfilled. You're going into hypotheticals about a possible mistake.

I mean when you drive a car everyday you could make a mistake too. It's too fuzzy to go in this direction.

replies(2): >>jamesh+iC1 >>vinayp+PB2
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32. byyyy+qk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 18:31:09
>>tiberi+M71
>Anyone who intensionally crashes a huge hunk of metal into pubic land, causing a significant hazard, and exposing the public to stupid risks for "views" absolutely deserves significant jail-time

No people who slaughters others through deliberate negligence deserve jail time. That includes FAA and boeing employees who violated clear rules.

A person who does stupid shit with no intention of killing people and put no one at risk and ended up not killing anybody should be punished for doing stupid shit. Jail time which is huge is reserved for actual criminals, who actively and have Already harmed people.

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33. byyyy+7l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 18:34:04
>>tiberi+M71
>You seem awfully hung up on the Hollywood effects being overblown. Yes, this is true and no one is arguing against it. However, even a small spark can start a forest fire.

I'm hung up on it because the likelihood of this happening is in Actuality overblown. It's not fire season yet and CA just came out of a drenching torrent of rain.

replies(1): >>jamesh+0E1
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34. jamesh+iC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 19:46:31
>>byyyy+ab1
Right, but as a society we have taken the position that we don’t trust people to correctly aim unguided gliding missiles at safe bits of ground. We therefore require pilots to not get out of their plane mid flight. Even if this guy got his calculations right, we don’t hand out licenses to people that say ‘we trust you to do that safely’.

This is not an unreasonable regulatory burden impinging on individual freedom.

replies(1): >>byyyy+bq2
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35. jamesh+0E1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 19:54:17
>>byyyy+7l1
He did this in November 2021. The Alisal fire was still burning in Los Padres.

Literally where he crashed.

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36. ChoGGi+NM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 20:34:17
>>byyyy+ZH
> First off he crashed the plane deliberately into empty forest. There's no hikers in the place he crashed it, he knows that.

How?

He's in trouble for covering up, not so much what he did.

replies(1): >>byyyy+Lp2
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37. byyyy+Lp2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 01:05:46
>>ChoGGi+NM1
Agreed he should be in trouble for that. But probably not jailtime.
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38. byyyy+bq2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 01:09:12
>>jamesh+iC1
>Right, but as a society we have taken the position that we don’t trust people to correctly aim unguided gliding missiles at safe bits of ground. We therefore require pilots to not get out of their plane mid flight. Even if this guy got his calculations right, we don’t hand out licenses to people that say ‘we trust you to do that safely’.

Agreed and we should punish these people accordingly with fines and suspension of license. We should not classify these people as potential murderers and put them in jail.

replies(1): >>9dev+4V2
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39. vinayp+PB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 03:21:48
>>byyyy+ab1
He absolutely did not crash it "in a specific" location. At best he crashed it in a wide area and put people's lives at risk. It might be a small risk but it's absolutely not his call to make. He's basically saying "there's a chance you might die but that's a risk I'm willing to take". For the sake of a few video clicks.

I don't know if you're just trolling or are completely stupid, but that might be a distinction without a difference.

replies(1): >>byyyy+sl3
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40. 9dev+4V2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 07:19:53
>>byyyy+bq2
Where did you get the idea that jail is for murderers exclusively? You can turn this around as much as you like, but as a matter of fact, and as parent described, he did something willingly that could have killed people or destroyed property. That they did that in a remote location doesn’t change a thing about that, that means our legal system works.
replies(1): >>byyyy+rj3
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41. byyyy+rj3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 12:47:31
>>9dev+4V2
Where did you get the idea that I said jail is exclusively for murderers? I didn't say that. You should read.

You going to drive has extremely high risk of killing somebody. Traffic accidents are some of the highest causes of death in the country.

What I'm saying is what he did carries equivalent risk of killing to driving. He aimed the plane at a spot devoid of people and crashed it. Is there risk? Technically yes, but it's technical to the point where it stops making sense to consider it.

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42. byyyy+sl3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 13:02:58
>>vinayp+PB2
>It might be a small risk but it's absolutely not his call to make.

Traffic accidents is one of the largest causes of death in this country. When you drive you make the same call.

He aimed his plane at a specific location 100%. This is obvious because he deliberately chose not to crash in a highly populated area. He chose an area that is largely unpopulated. This is easy to choose if you know your location and you just look out the window.

>I don't know if you're just trolling or are completely stupid, but that might be a distinction without a difference.

Clever way to call someone stupid. Please be mature enough to have a civil discussion. Neither of us is stupid but possibly one of us does not have the maturity or self control not to call someone stupid. Please act like an adult or go somewhere else where antics like this are welcomed.

Think about it. I point my car at an area devoid of people and drive towards that area then jump out of the car. Is there a slight risk of the car still hitting someone? Technically yes but it's so miniscule it's stupid to consider. Am I murderer? no.

I do the same thing with a plane. Am I murderer? No.

One thing that's making me scratch my head is you realize people have eyes right? They can see out of a window and they can see if a wide area below or in front of them is populated.

replies(1): >>vinayp+Vb5
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43. pvalde+R74[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 18:07:42
>>byyyy+ZH
> Should someone who runs a car into an empty wall be charged with jail time?

Could be. This depends a lot on the owner of the wall

replies(1): >>byyyy+GP4
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44. byyyy+GP4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 23:09:28
>>pvalde+R74
Wall is undamaged. Car is damaged. In that case nothing happens. (In CA, where this took place)
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45. vinayp+Vb5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-14 03:27:16
>>byyyy+sl3
Repeating a bad analogy over and over again doesn't make it any more true. He absolutely didn't "aim at his plane at a specific location". At best his plane was aimed somewhere in several square kilometers that could have been occupied by hikers, campers, park rangers and other people.

The fact that the personna played by this account doesn't understand that makes it either stupid or disingenuous.

Either way I'm no longer treating it as an entity worthy of dialogue with.

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