zlacker

[parent] [thread] 11 comments
1. dragon+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:17:56
“Faces up to…” means exactly what it says, that is “Faces a sentence that cannot exceed…”

Now, it doesn’t (in general) mean “Is likely to receive, if convicted”, which some people tend to assume, but it also doesn’t mean nothing. And given the fact that upward departure is allowed from the federal sentencing guidelines, but not from the statutory maximums for the offenses charged, it is literally all you can tell with certainty from the charges themselves.

replies(2): >>akerl_+x1 >>teduna+S2
2. akerl_+x1[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:27:45
>>dragon+(OP)
"Faces a sentence that cannot exceed" and "faces up to" convey very different messages.
replies(1): >>dragon+52
◧◩
3. dragon+52[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:31:02
>>akerl_+x1
They literally mean the exact same thing.
replies(1): >>akerl_+w3
4. teduna+S2[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:36:04
>>dragon+(OP)
Is the maximum sentence particularly useful information? How does this fact aid my understanding of the severity of what he's done?
replies(2): >>dragon+p3 >>nordsi+5i
◧◩
5. dragon+p3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:39:18
>>teduna+S2
> Is the maximum sentence particularly useful information?

Opinions will differ on this highly subjective question.

> How does this fact aid my understanding of the severity of what he’s done?

It aids your understanding of the potential consequences, not the severity of what he has done.

replies(1): >>teduna+C5
◧◩◪
6. akerl_+w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:40:07
>>dragon+52
That's great, and if humans were a silicon-based life form that parsed language dispassionately, I'm sure it would be relevant.

But humans are made of meat, and words and phrases have connotations. There's a difference in the perception (both to the subject and society) between those two options.

"Cannot exceed" makes it pretty clear that it's a maximum bound, and doesn't imply that the actual number will be any particular distance between zero and the maximum. "Up to" leads the reader to assume that the likely sentence is close to the stated amount.

replies(1): >>dragon+N4
◧◩◪◨
7. dragon+N4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:48:59
>>akerl_+w3
> “Up to” leads the reader to assume that the likely sentence is close to the stated amount.

Honestly, I think most readers will be more familiar with how “up to” doesn’t mean that it is likely to be close than with the meaning of “cannot exceed”, from experience (as “up to” is regularly used in this way commercially), but, yes, unfortunately given only one figure, even if clearly marked as an upper bound, people who aren’t actively critically reading are likely to fixate on it as if it was a prediction of the likely result rather than a bound.

replies(2): >>akerl_+e5 >>dlltho+CH
◧◩◪◨⬒
8. akerl_+e5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:51:28
>>dragon+N4
It seems like the DoJ and basically every other executive office disagrees with you, given that they get to write the reports, and they've spent years saying "up to" in press releases designed to imply that the listed number is accurate and scare the subject of the investigation.
replies(1): >>dragon+G6
◧◩◪
9. teduna+C5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:54:03
>>dragon+p3
My prior understanding of the consequences was that he may or may not go to prison for an amount of time, and not a whole lot has changed. I guess I now know he won't go to prison for 40 years, but that's not exactly condensing the probability cloud.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
10. dragon+G6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 00:00:22
>>akerl_+e5
> given that they get to write the reports, and they’ve spent years saying “up to” in press releases designed to imply that the listed number is accurate and scare the subject of the investigation.

Press releases aren’t designed to scare the subject of the investigation, especially not press releases announcing a plea agreement that has already been reached.

◧◩
11. nordsi+5i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 01:32:44
>>teduna+S2
> Is the maximum sentence particularly useful information? How does this fact aid my understanding of the severity of what he's done?

In this case, probably not - 20 years is pretty stiff, and the crime implies that typical sentences are much less than that.

But if the maximum sentence was say... 6 months instead; or just a fine. Yeah - I think that would be useful information.

◧◩◪◨⬒
12. dlltho+CH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 05:42:40
>>dragon+N4
In the commercial context I'm particularly fond of "up to X or more!"
[go to top]