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[parent] [thread] 34 comments
1. pigbea+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:17:15
This is a plea deal, no one is going to plea to the maximum, which in this case is 20 years. The punishment can also be a fine [1], which may be fitting if the goal was profit from a YouTube video.

When news articles mention the maximum, especially in headlines, it feels a bit misleading. It seems there's a decent chance there is little or no prison.

[1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1519

replies(8): >>glonq+X >>ehsank+61 >>542458+S1 >>dragon+U1 >>fauxpa+W1 >>nr2x+S8 >>paulpa+j9 >>ROTMet+l9
2. glonq+X[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:23:09
>>pigbea+(OP)
TBF when internet news articles mention anything, it feels quite misleading :P
replies(1): >>andrey+R1
3. ehsank+61[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:24:11
>>pigbea+(OP)
But that's what "up to" means. Almost every indictment is reported as "up to X" with X being the maximum. But it's almost never the maximum.
replies(3): >>542458+H2 >>Cobras+V2 >>detrit+qW
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4. andrey+R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:28:52
>>glonq+X
"If you don’t read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."
5. 542458+S1[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:28:54
>>pigbea+(OP)
Relevant here is Popehat’s “Whale Sushi. Sentence: ELEVENTY MILLION YEARS.”

https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc...

replies(1): >>ripper+M4
6. dragon+U1[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:29:03
>>pigbea+(OP)
> This is a plea deal

True.

> no one is going to plea to the maximum, which in this case is 20 years.

Unlike in some state systems, federal plea deals do not usually packaged with a sentence. You can plea to a more limited set of charges than initially charged with (or than the Feds were waiving around at you), but you usually don’t “plea to” a particular sentence within the range for the charge you plea guilty to. [0]

The reason the maximum sentence is what is in news articles is that it is a fact. Anything else as to what the sentence will be is speculation, but that the statutory maximum for the charged offenses is the upper limit is an uncontroversial legal boundary.

[0] revised from stronger language, a reply on a separate subthread corrected that; it is possible for federal plea agreements to include a binding sentence terms which the court can only reject by also rejecting the plea agreement. But very often they do not, and the reporting of the statutoriy maximum is in that case correct as the only knowable limit.

replies(2): >>ramraj+4V >>lozeng+5k1
7. fauxpa+W1[view] [source] 2023-05-11 23:29:12
>>pigbea+(OP)
The goal does not seem relevant. The goal of a bank robbery is to profit from the bank robbery.
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8. 542458+H2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:33:49
>>ehsank+61
I mean, it’s a bit like if I reported “Next-gen Tesla could reach speeds as high as 671 million miles per hour”. But in both cases the reality will fall so far short of the maximum that the maximum’s value is essentially irrelevant.
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9. Cobras+V2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:35:33
>>ehsank+61
Technically correct isn't actually the best kind of correct. "Local Man Shorts One Share of IBM, Faces Up To One Billion Dollars of Loss" is technically correct, in the sense that there's no real upper bound, but it's not useful, and it's actively misleading.

A reasonable estimate based on sentencing guidelines isn't super hard for a lawyer to work out, and it'd be far more useful for readers, but it's slightly more work and it makes for significantly less exciting headlines.

replies(3): >>pixl97+46 >>ehsank+v6 >>shadow+iD1
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10. ripper+M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:48:03
>>542458+S1
Popehat nailed it: breathless headlines proclaimed "up to" 67 years in federal prison, he ended up with 2 years of probation.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sushi-chef-whal...

replies(1): >>pvalde+Ug1
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11. pixl97+46[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:55:51
>>Cobras+V2
I mean, a short stock is unbounded. A sentence for an individual charge is bounded.

Lots of things lawyers do are easy for lawyers to figure out. That doesn't mean a programmer is going to be able to make a reasonable estimate unless they both understand the law and the history of the accused.

replies(1): >>Dylan1+x9
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12. ehsank+v6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 23:58:25
>>Cobras+V2
Neither your example or the example below with Tesla speed make sense.

Sentencing is a fairly well defined things. You have guidelines and upper limits that come with specific charges, and then the judge uses those guidelines and various other factors to then sentence somewhere along that spectrum. Anyone read a handful of sentencing news stories is very well familiar with how it works.

13. nr2x+S8[view] [source] 2023-05-12 00:17:03
>>pigbea+(OP)
I don’t know about you but I’d not want to spend one day in federal, or any, prison.
replies(4): >>MBCook+1b >>ROTMet+lb >>qingch+9v >>epolan+cY
14. paulpa+j9[view] [source] 2023-05-12 00:19:39
>>pigbea+(OP)
very very unlikely he gets even 10.
15. ROTMet+l9[view] [source] 2023-05-12 00:19:47
>>pigbea+(OP)
It's funny when you take a plea you have to say you were not coerced into making the plea even though everyone knows that you were threatened with the 'trial tax' of an extremely high maximum sentence in order to pressure you into taking the plea. That's the whole reason for these max sentences. Think of the 'trial tax' as a threat to 'not dare' exercise your right to trial. And then the plea includes taking away your Constitutional right to appeal later. It's like Constitutional rights are malleable (except of course the good old 2a, then those same people are fine with restricting other rights say Constitutional rights can not be violated). Sad that there are euphemism like 'trial tax' 'diesel therapy' for blatant Constitutional rights violations in the USA.
replies(1): >>qingch+fw
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16. Dylan1+x9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 00:20:38
>>pixl97+46
> I mean, a short stock is unbounded. A sentence for an individual charge is bounded.

Okay fine. Local man shorts 1 share of IBM and pays a penny to get a call option at $huge. He faces a loss of up to $huge!

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17. MBCook+1b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 00:33:06
>>nr2x+S8
Yeah but I would also never concoct a plane crash video “to make money through a sponsorship with a wallet company.”

That’s literally in the article. I don’t know how this was supposed to make me want a wallet either.

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18. ROTMet+lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 00:36:14
>>nr2x+S8
The worst part is the 'diesel therapy' that is transport to get there: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/08/15/the-federal-pr...

It's fun when you pissed someone with authority off and get on the sh!t list and the local guard kicks an inmate out of their bed and puts them on a floor (they call it a boat but it's just being on the floor) and gives you the bed (the guards can't get violent with you, but they know how to get someone else to). Not every inmate is going to beat you up, but when you are moved from place to place during the month or more transport takes one of the guys who get's kicked out to make room for you is guaranteed to fight over it.

The one you don't think of is that they won't unshackle you to use the bathroom (especially on con-air) so half the guy's backsides are covered in their own excrement because you need your hands to wipe. Good times, good times.

replies(1): >>qingch+nv
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19. qingch+9v[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 03:34:56
>>nr2x+S8
Having spent 10 years inside I can promise you that you are right.

Of all the things you see on TV and in the movies about prison, the worst two are not shown: total mind-numbing boredom, and your cellmate's farts.

replies(1): >>streak+Qm1
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20. qingch+nv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 03:37:44
>>ROTMet+lb
Prisoner Transport Services is totally inhumane. The sheer number of horror stories I've heard from fellow inmates of their weekslong journeys across the USA in the most rotten conditions imaginable.
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21. qingch+fw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 03:46:56
>>ROTMet+l9
This.

It's funny, in Illinois they altered the judge's plea script a couple of years back. They used to say "has anyone made you any promises in regards to this plea?", but now they say "except for the prosecutor, has anyone made any promises.."

It is hard, because if you are innocent you have to make a tough choice. Two weeks after my arrest I was offered a plea to be released the next day. I refused and it took nine and a half years in pretrial custody to actually get my case heard.

replies(1): >>nibble+eB1
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22. ramraj+4V[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 07:42:20
>>dragon+U1
I could publish an article saying Elon Musk is going to die. It's incontrovertible, and likely the only fact you can say about his death, given in fact that he's not yet dead and going insofar as to agree that all people will die eventually. Do you think an article saying "Elon Musk is going to die" is not disingenuous?
replies(3): >>dragon+DV >>bryanr+r21 >>beowul+oc1
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23. dragon+DV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 07:46:41
>>ramraj+4V
> Do you think an article saying “Elon Musk is going to die” is not disingenuous?

If that is the entire content of the article and it has no context to which it is addressed, I think its pointless, but, no, I see no reason in your hypothetical or any obvious extension to see it as disingenuous.

I also don’t see it as particularly usefully analogous to the situation previously being discussed.

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24. detrit+qW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 07:54:23
>>ehsank+61
So then, leaving it off the headline, and including something like your comment as a hefty qualifier when mentioning it in the article would be a way to present that aspect more honestly and without sensationalising it?
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25. epolan+cY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 08:09:43
>>nr2x+S8
+1

Every time I hear stories about someone being wrongfully committed while having nothing to do with the facts I'm super scared.

A person I know who lives in Sicily shared the very same exact name with a local criminal who was often mentioned in tapes and got arrested and jailed for few weeks till it was cleared it was somebody else. It even was a strike of luck the other one was arrested few weeks after him, and you know how it goes in small Sicily villages, everyone knows each other so he also occasionally would find himself in the same places known criminals would hang out, same super markets of bars or restaurants.

Another person I know spent a similar amount of time accused of aggression towards police. He was stopped for drunk driving (which isn't a jailable felony in Italy obviously) and when he was asked to leave the car he leaned on cop's car and they "framed" that as an aggression while the guy simply couldn't keep his balance so he half felt on the cops vehicle. He was cleared thanks to cameras.

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26. bryanr+r21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 08:53:52
>>ramraj+4V
I already know Elon Musk is going to die, I didn't know what the maximum sentence this guy faced was though.
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27. beowul+oc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 10:22:43
>>ramraj+4V
I mean, to me personally that sounds like a gimmicky title. Without putting why he is going to die, it sounds less factual and more like a blog post about how Elon Musk should learn to smell the roses because he isn’t getting any younger.

I get what you’re saying though. With sentencing, I feel like the maximum sentence is always given, and while dramatic it is very common to see.

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28. pvalde+Ug1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 11:06:01
>>ripper+M4
The problem for Popehat was that eating sei whales is "apparently non cool"? Seriously?

All cetaceans are protected by law, morons!. We don't even know how many species of fin whales exist (one was discovered in the Gulf of Mexico in 2023) and you want sushi? Go f*k yourselves popehats!. Thousands of people spent blood, sweat and tears for the last 60 years working really hard for saving them.

If we let it pass unpunished just because "my cultcha" the calling effect will be catastrophic. Deliberately crashing a plane against a natural park is not different. Is a test. If it goes unpunished you are fully giving the castle keys to any criminals trying to make a profit of the same stunt, and they will.

replies(1): >>kayfox+KX1
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29. lozeng+5k1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 11:38:50
>>dragon+U1
There are hundreds of lawyers and retired judges who would happily and legally provide their opinion to be published alongside their name, this is not done because of disinterest. Not because of a commitment to factual reporting.
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30. streak+Qm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 11:57:10
>>qingch+9v
How does a regular shared cell compare to solitary confinement?
replies(1): >>qingch+S14
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31. nibble+eB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 13:17:18
>>qingch+fw
So much for the right to a speedy trial.

Did you get any recourse for this?

replies(1): >>qingch+m14
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32. shadow+iD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 13:25:55
>>Cobras+V2
> A reasonable estimate based on sentencing guidelines isn't super hard for a lawyer to work out

I'm not sure what priors the lawyer would use to guess the expected penalty for something as unprecedented as "Crashed a plane on purpose for YouTube likes."

Perhaps the maximum sentence is preferable for the news outlet because it's a number that's definitely not wrong?

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33. kayfox+KX1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-12 14:54:49
>>pvalde+Ug1
Ken White has a informal style of writing with sarcasm, irreverency and jokes that honestly makes it less dry of a read. In no way is he saying eating whales should be allowed.
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34. qingch+m14[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 03:11:12
>>nibble+eB1
No recourse yet, still working on it. Might be zero.

There is a right to a speedy trial, which in Illinois is 120 days once you demand it. Sadly the reality is that it is very hard to get that clock ticking if you are trying to prepare for trial, or waiting on evidence, etc. Also, COVID stopped the clock for two years of that too.

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35. qingch+S14[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-13 03:18:05
>>streak+Qm1
Depends on your personality. I started in a single-man cell for the first few months, then I was in the Hole for a couple of stretches and that was solitary, and then during COVID I got my own cell again for about 8 months. I am an only child, so I am incredibly comfortable being alone for long periods. I hate sharing a cell with someone else, as 99% of the time you probably won't like the other person. Most two-man cells only have enough floor space for one person to stand, so you are constantly shuffling around each other. And bumping into anyone in jail is immediate grounds for a fight, so you are constantly on guard.

Plus, no-one wants to be in the same box as another man who is taking a shit. And the food is so bad that practically everyone has diarrhea all day every day.

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