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1. prepen+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-03-01 12:21:35
I like that the corporate bullshit just keeps getting more. Google’s “don’t be evil” is many steps down from openai having open in their name.

They should be called OpenAI with (not open) in small print.

I argue a lot over “open source” software with non-OSI license and sometimes worry if I’m too pedantic. But I think it’s important to use terms accurately and not to confuse reality more than it already is by calling stuff that’s not one thing by that thing’s name.

I wonder if google and openai truly started out with these ideals and were just corrupted and overpowered by standard organizational greed. Or it was always bullshit.

replies(7): >>api+Z >>yawboa+d2 >>xiphia+ij >>polish+ew >>DrammB+Vw >>uoaei+mC >>ly3xqh+cE
2. api+Z[view] [source] 2023-03-01 12:29:00
>>prepen+(OP)
A lot of non-OSI open source licenses are ironically motivated by other forms of bad corporate behavior: take open source, SaaSify it, make massive profits, give nothing back. In some cases they go so far as to rebrand it and give no credit. Licenses like the SSPL try to restrict this behavior.
replies(1): >>krageo+Q3
3. yawboa+d2[view] [source] 2023-03-01 12:38:17
>>prepen+(OP)
they acquired the ai.com domain. perhaps in preparation to correct the accident (of having `open` in their name) once and for all?
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4. krageo+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 12:49:35
>>api+Z
The AGPL (also) does this explicitly, but really there should be a general OSS license that forbids commercial use. That way the software stays where it is most needed and doesn't get abused to make profit. Is there such a license?
replies(3): >>tluybe+Z6 >>iib+67 >>prepen+Fa
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5. tluybe+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 13:10:49
>>krageo+Q3
Yeah; just make a license which forbids any commercial and is GPL style viral and offer another commercial license so you can make money. Use the same features in both; no need to hold back as no-one using it can do so commercially unless they bought a license, which can be yearly etc etc.
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6. iib+67[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 13:11:44
>>krageo+Q3
I recall the FSF being pretty adamant that a license restricting commercial use would be a non-free license by default.
replies(2): >>Alexan+E9 >>api+6G
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7. Alexan+E9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 13:30:50
>>iib+67
I kind of see their point. Freedom 0 is about the freedom to run software how you wish[1] and "commercial use" can encompass everything from FAANG down to one-man, niche businesses.

[1] The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

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8. prepen+Fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 13:36:40
>>krageo+Q3
> there should be a general OSS license that forbids commercial use

I think the problem is that if you restrict corporate use then you’re not open. And there’s lots of complexity that comes from being non-open, like what’s commercial? Do governments and NGOs and universities count? Do you have to be a 501c3 charity (or international equivalent)? Do you have revenue thresholds? Profit thresholds? Etc etc

I think at that point, as a user, I’d rather just have a clear license I can pay for along with a copy of the source to see. But as a contributor, I don’t want to do unpaid labor for companies. I think it’s actually exploitative to accept contribs from users without compensation and then turn around and sell. So what’s the point of showing code if people can’t contribute to it.

It’s already possible to do this given a standard copyright. Just publish your code with no license and a copyright and issue some statement how you won’t prosecute small firms or something. So then students can use it, but no companies.

“Open core” and whatnot is silly marketing blarg to try to be cool like open source people while still selling licenses. RedHat came up with a decent model decades ago while using and supporting GPL and I think they were honest and improved the community.

9. xiphia+ij[view] [source] 2023-03-01 14:28:00
>>prepen+(OP)
,,I wonder if google and openai truly started out with these ideals and were just corrupted and overpowered by standard organizational greed''

With Google Eric Schmidt explained how it came: quite often when they were breainstorming about product launches, and something looked like it can grow the company, but is immoral to do, some person interrupted: ,,that would be evil''.

As Eric was trying to organize the company, he just added ,,don't be evil'' to company values. Still, he kept it all the way. It's too bad that he was changed after 10 years.

replies(2): >>d23+qk >>ryanob+2t
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10. d23+qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 14:33:45
>>xiphia+ij
Source? My understanding was this came from within and had nothing to do with products but instead how employees treated one another.
replies(1): >>xiphia+dl
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11. xiphia+dl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 14:38:41
>>d23+qk
Tim Ferriss interview with him. It came from within, maybe I didn't explain myself clearly.
replies(1): >>espere+nC1
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12. ryanob+2t[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 15:24:02
>>xiphia+ij
This was historically described as "When google was going to hire it's first MBA, an engineer coined the phrase 'dont be evil' and went around spreading inside the company"

So I don't know how to square it with this recent info, but I would say Eric's recent interview is a creative re-interpretation of the circumstances. As execs tend to do.

13. polish+ew[view] [source] 2023-03-01 15:43:49
>>prepen+(OP)
I'd like to think of the "Open" in "OpenAI" to not be anything to do with open source or freedom but with the fact that they "opened" Pandora's box.
replies(3): >>edgyqu+BV >>butter+nk2 >>rullel+4Q2
14. DrammB+Vw[view] [source] 2023-03-01 15:47:49
>>prepen+(OP)
They should be called Open, AI
15. uoaei+mC[view] [source] 2023-03-01 16:12:18
>>prepen+(OP)
Corporate bullshit goes way back. There are certain systemic forces which are simply unavoidable if your company is to survive in a competitive market. One of them is the inevitable turn toward profit-making, and the kinds of pivots you need to make in order to achieve profitability.

The same forces are at play when companies decided to make "company towns" and do things like "shoot all the workers who stood up for better pay".

16. ly3xqh+cE[view] [source] 2023-03-01 16:18:47
>>prepen+(OP)
Besides the seemingly unfriendly ClosedAI, if I were their brand designer I would rename to PlusAI, given their ChatGPT Plus.

Later Edit: apparently there is already a plus.ai start-up with some self-driving technology, just buy them out for the name.

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17. api+6G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 16:26:59
>>iib+67
Yep the OSI’s position is that FOSS is free labor for SaaS and giant corporations. Look at who funds the OSI and I think there is a clear case of capture here.

SaaS is the least free model for software. Closed source commercial is far more open and free than SaaS.

replies(1): >>pepper+YO
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18. pepper+YO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 16:58:21
>>api+6G
Yes, it is important to understand that using open-source software in a commercial SaaS is immoral.

However, it should be noted that it applies only to open-source projects that were created by billion-dollar startups like Mongo or Elastic. Using software like Apache, Linux or Postgres is totally fine because it doesn't deprive SV startups (that are so precious to HN) of additional profits.

replies(1): >>prepen+v01
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19. edgyqu+BV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 17:22:39
>>polish+ew
That’s not what it meant though
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20. prepen+v01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 17:38:54
>>pepper+YO
> using open-source software in a commercial SaaS is immoral.

I don’t agree with this. I’m not a huge open source contributor but I’ve made some contribs over the year and I explicitly checked out the license before sending my change knowing that it could be used within commercial software.

I don’t care. I’d rather companies spend money and build something else than have to recreate the OSS stuff they use.

I want anyone to be able to use my software for any purpose. I certainly don’t think it’s immoral. And I don’t think the authors and users of BSD, MIT, Apache and other licenses think it’s immoral.

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21. espere+nC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-01 20:22:05
>>xiphia+dl
So you heard a story in an interview from an executive. That's unlikely to be pure, unembellished truth. It's unlikely to even be partial truth. Better to think of it as a "truth adjacent" story made up for marketing purposes.
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22. butter+nk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-02 00:49:30
>>polish+ew
I think it's a reference to how openly they betrayed public goodwill
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23. rullel+4Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-03-02 05:51:46
>>polish+ew
If that helps you sleep..
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