zlacker

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1. luckyl+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-02-08 21:53:27
> What are people expecting out of Google that it's not delivering?

Not optimize for "most documents indexed" but "highest quality of results". One of them encourages adding spam to their index, the other encourages removing spam from their index.

replies(1): >>gipp+N1
2. gipp+N1[view] [source] 2023-02-08 21:59:43
>>luckyl+(OP)
There are giant teams of people at Google whose only job is trying to define things like "spam" and "seo abuse" more precisely in more diverse contexts. There are equally large armies of people outside of it trying to outwit the first group and find more and more elaborate loopholes and workarounds.

HN is constantly pushing this notion that "spam" is some well-defined, solvable problem, so obviously Google wants it. That narrative just doesn't make sense from any angle. The notion that more click bait improves Google's bottom line is absurd

replies(3): >>basch+H2 >>bbor+G3 >>luckyl+Lm
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3. basch+H2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:04:09
>>gipp+N1
Their giant teams are an organizational failure then.

Product reviews alone, whether it is enterprise software or sports clothing should be something that they can easily comb through by hand, as humans, and uprank sites that are putting out more than affiliate link assemblies.

replies(2): >>bbor+p4 >>Fede_V+q4
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4. bbor+G3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:08:18
>>gipp+N1
This discussion is pretty sad and frustrating for me. I think your conclusion (“Google has no motive to encourage spam content that rises to the top using SEO tricks”) is about as convincing as it gets, but it’s completely drowned out by a very vague sense that google is a big company and therefor it’s making search worse on purpose. No amount of well-worded HN posts are gonna sway people, imo…

Luckily HN posters don’t exactly represent a meaningful portion of the population.

replies(1): >>luckyl+qn
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5. bbor+p4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:11:16
>>basch+H2
Why wouldn’t they do this, if it’s scalable and profitable? Is your theory just “incompetence”? I can’t prove that’s wrong, but I feel the simpler answer is more convincing; that handing off page rank to an army of minimum wage call center workers (for every country & language in the world…) wouldn’t be more effective than the existing algorithms at filtering out spam.
replies(1): >>basch+P6
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6. Fede_V+q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:11:21
>>basch+H2
Absolutely: the challenge is that any signal that you use to identify "good websites" from "bad websites" will be adversarially optimized by incredibly motivated people.

You are dealing with a moving target that has a huge financial incentive. It's a very difficult problem.

replies(1): >>basch+F7
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7. basch+P6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:19:51
>>bbor+p4
Some form of paralysis. They dont have a single leader who has taken responsibility for it and corrected it. CEO/SVP has too many pots on the stove.

Im legitimately asking, who is responsible for Search at Google? Prabhakar Raghavan is SVP, Search, Assistant & Ads, and I click under him, he has 8 product groups reporting to him, and none of the people are responsible for Search. Yossi Matias is responsible for Search Engineering.

https://theorg.com/org/google

It may at first come off as a laughable answer, but Google Search has been in a directionless spiral since Marissa Mayer left. Her Yahoo tenure was not well received, but at Google she cared about the end quality of the product. Her title was Search Products and User Experience. Notice how we have gone from User Experience to Search Engineering, forgetting about the people who actually use the product.

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8. basch+F7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 22:23:48
>>Fede_V+q4
I don't agree. You start whitelisting good content manually. If babygearlab is the best result for baby gear, you start hardcoding it. If seriouseats is the best result for recipes, you hard code it. If someone better comes along, they get moved up the priority list.

You figure out a way to crowdsource certain decisions and establish who you can trust. Ask them questions with right and wrong answers. You start to tackle it one product category at a time. Instead of pagerank, which was a web of who linked to who" you start figuring which voters you have who consistently turn in good feedback.

This is some form of metamoderation that slashdot tried to implement.

If you are going to be a tastemaker, stop hiding behind "the algorithm" having some mind of its own that cant be controlled.

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9. luckyl+Lm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 23:31:44
>>gipp+N1
What's the reason for these giant teams of presumable well-paid experts and geniuses to not define "a clone of SO with some of the answers juggled around between questions" as spam?

> The notion that more click bait improves Google's bottom line is absurd

If you don't find what you're looking for on the first try, you'll need to try again, and see more ads. What else are you going to do, go elsewhere, visit a library, ask the town elders or give up on looking for things you want to know? You don't have a choice, you know it, they know it.

I find it equally plausible that Youtube's search sucks badly because they don't care what you're looking for, they want you to watch videos that they predict will lead to the maximum time spent on the site, again so you watch more ads. What other explanation is there that the world's leading search engine has the search of one of their flagship products run at 1999 quality? Presumably they have giant teams of people working on that too?

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10. luckyl+qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-08 23:34:35
>>bbor+G3
Have you looked at Youtube comments recently? It's a mess. There's no organization, half of the replies are censored but are still being counted, so you have plenty of "1 Reply" links but nothing shows up when you toggle. Half of the top level comments are completely useless comments that are only posted to help the creator "beat the algorithm", every successful creator now has a call to action to write a comment.

I see two options: a) Google can't do any better than that, b) Google has a reason to keep it in the current state (I'll put "Google doesn't know because nobody at Google has used Youtube in the last 5 years" and similar options under "a").

a) sounds ridiculous, b) sounds conspiratorial. What are the other options?

And again, I'm not saying they are making search worse on purpose (no "from now on our core mission is to make search suck"). I'm saying they aren't optimizing for SERP quality. They seem to care about index size (maybe it's an internal KPI? would certainly explain their aggressive guessing at additional URLs that you might have on their page but don't link to, don't add in sitemaps etc, and their stubbornness in keeping results from the index even if they've been 301ed or 410ed ages ago (they do get downranked after a while though)), but I assume that they mostly care about paid ad clicks, and if something increases ad clicks while the result quality decreases, they'll do it.

replies(1): >>rightb+ru1
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11. rightb+ru1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-09 09:29:24
>>luckyl+qn
It could very well be that none at Google understands the search engine code anymore due to their high attrition. So it has been surface patched for X years making the problem worse.
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