zlacker

[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. camjoh+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-16 21:37:23
This is the height of hypocrisy. Everything the "twitter files" have disclosed so far is in line with what most people expected was happening, but Musk's censorship of the platform has been far more egregious than anything that came before. This isn't to defend the actions that Twitter took, which were arguably partisan in some cases, but it's difficult to make the case that Twitter wasn't making a best effort to curate a healthy platform.

Musk by contrast has shown that he only cares about limiting speech that damages himself, and he will say or do anything to obscure that fact. He promised not to ban the elonjet account, and then reversed course: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/12/14/elons-promise-not-to-ban...

He falsely claimed that Twitter refused to take action on child exploitation: https://twitter.com/jack/status/1601302412056473600?s=20&t=4...

He has banned journalists who were critical to him in the past: https://mastodon.world/@kairyssdal/109524620754087441

He has banned Mastodon and Pixelfed's accounts, falsly labeling them as "malware."

And most hypocritically, he claims the reason for all of this is because these people have shared "assassination coordinates" and "doxxed" him, even though first of all, the information is public: https://mastodon.social/@JxckS/109524630642043912 Second, most of the journalists never linked to his private information: https://famichiki.jp/@stopthatgirl7/109522071808584229 There is evidence that his claimed stalker was far from an airport, and worst in my opinion, he has doxxed critics in the past in much more damaging ways: https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/37229846-montana-skeptic/... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon... https://futurism.com/the-byte/twitter-employee-flees-home-el...

replies(3): >>ZeroGr+g3 >>ShredK+oT >>Lendal+G41
2. ZeroGr+g3[view] [source] 2022-12-16 21:51:52
>>camjoh+(OP)
I'll try to find an article explaining the concept, but for right-wing authoritarians, the hypocrisy is the point.

In group vs out group.

https://level.medium.com/its-always-about-power-f9fca4321e0c

replies(3): >>George+ZN >>b0sk+0Q >>BEEdwa+pS
◧◩
3. George+ZN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:52:18
>>ZeroGr+g3
> the hypocrisy is the point.

I am right wing, and I hear right-wing commentators say things like "for left-wing authoritarians, the hypocrisy is the point" all the time. Seriously, the article you linked sounds exactly like something I would read from "my" side, just with good guys and bad guys reversed.

replies(2): >>ShredK+o01 >>archag+141
◧◩
4. b0sk+0Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:05:38
>>ZeroGr+g3
This is probably the best quote about conservatism: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

See: https://kottke.org/22/12/the-boring-conservatism-of-elon-mus...

replies(2): >>ShredK+501 >>George+O41
◧◩
5. BEEdwa+pS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 03:22:01
>>ZeroGr+g3
The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer

https://theauthoritarians.org/

6. ShredK+oT[view] [source] 2022-12-17 03:28:21
>>camjoh+(OP)
>This is the height of hypocrisy. Everything the "twitter files" have disclosed so far is in line with what most people expected was happening

Twitter repeatedly denied that right-wing users were being shadowbanned. That turned out to be false.

A month ago, someone on HN patronizingly explained to me that Twitter's moderation was "primarily dictated by building an advertiser friendly platform": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33652282 The Twitter files have made it clear that this user's claim, "Twitter's moderation policies weren't primarily dictated by their political views", was false.

If Twitter's moderation was primarily about staying advertiser-friendly, they would've announced their shadowbans publicly, so advertisers would know they were safe advertising on Twitter as a platform. There wouldn't be any interesting revelations to be had.

As for doxxing, I see rules against doxxing as pro free speech. Doxxing doesn't contribute meaningfully to the public discourse. It just intimidates people into silence, interfering with speech exercise.

Free speech is a subtle concept: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/01/is-it-possible-to-have... A ban on doxxing advances free speech as I understand it. You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think my position is unreasonable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33995312

>he has doxxed critics in the past in much more damaging ways

Can you point to a case of, say, Yoel Roth's real-time location staying up on Twitter even after the recent rule change which prevents doxxing?

It appears to me, based on the article you linked, that Yoel fled his home in the wake of ordinary criticism. Not doxxing specifically. Ordinary criticism kind of has to be allowed -- it's essential for our democracy that e.g. citizens are allowed to criticize politicians. But doxxing is where I draw the line.

It seems this is why Mastodon was banned: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/15/elon-musk-suspends-mastodo...

Elon is far from perfect. But his child was physically threatened, and he responded by implementing restrictions which I consider to be correct anyways (as I stated -- doxxing is anti-free speech IMO). I think people are making more of this than it deserves. It's good if you have a CEO who's capable of changing their mind.

In any case, whatever happened to the old "Twitter is a private company, they can do what they want" argument? Right-wingers aren't the only hypocrites here.

replies(2): >>maxeri+3Y >>djur+u21
◧◩
7. maxeri+3Y[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:05:32
>>ShredK+oT
In any case, whatever happened to the old "Twitter is a private company, they can do what they want" argument? Right-wingers aren't the only hypocrites here.

People mocking the "Twitter Files" are saying that it's stupid, there's not really anybody calling for the government or some other actor to step in and stop them from doing it.

◧◩◪
8. ShredK+501[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:25:29
>>b0sk+0Q
Have you heard of the concept of an "ideological turing test"? https://www.econlib.org/archives/2011/06/the_ideological.htm...
◧◩◪
9. ShredK+o01[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:28:06
>>George+ZN
I'd consider myself a centrist democrat (registered Democrat, vote mostly for Democrats, had a wonderful childhood in a very multicultural region of California, spent several years living in Berkeley CA, my sister who I'm close to works for her local Democrat party) and I've been surprised by the strong element of left-wing extremism on HN. The culture of the site has changed quite a bit in the past few years. It used to be that there was room for more perspectives here. I feel that my interest in building a coherent political worldview puts me in a minority compared to HN users who just want to sling mud at people they see as their opponents.
replies(1): >>skinny+gb1
◧◩
10. djur+u21[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:45:55
>>ShredK+oT
> Twitter repeatedly denied that right-wing users were being shadowbanned. That turned out to be false.

Nobody has demonstrated any difference between Twitter's description of its own policies and the actual facts. They said they did not shadowban (prevent a user's posts from appearing to other users without their knowledge) and Taibbi and Weiss have confirmed that such functionality does not appear to exist in Twitter.

There's similarly no evidence that Musk's child was "physically threatened" other than his own say-so, and he's a known liar.

replies(1): >>ShredK+831
◧◩◪
11. ShredK+831[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:51:13
>>djur+u21
>Nobody has demonstrated any difference between Twitter's description of its own policies and the actual facts.

For both the Trump ban and the Hunter Biden story, it seems Twitter did not follow its own policies.

>Taibbi and Weiss have confirmed that such functionality does not appear to exist in Twitter.

Where?

In any case, I think this depends heavily on exactly how you define "shadowbanning". You can define "shadowbanning" so it conveniently excludes all the account-level suppression Twitter did. But the broader point is: Why weren't they transparent about the type of account-level suppression they were doing?

>There's similarly no evidence that Musk's child was "physically threatened" other than his own say-so, and he's a known liar.

I'm not sure what lying you are referring to. In any case, are you willing to grant that Elon's actions are understandable if he's telling the truth about his child?

replies(1): >>djur+E31
◧◩◪◨
12. djur+E31[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:56:00
>>ShredK+831
Please don't change subjects. We were talking about "shadowbanning", not Hunter Biden. Twitter has stated for years that they have controls to prevent algorithmic recommendation of particular users, content, or trends, and that's precisely what we saw reported on by Taibbi and Weiss. They had direct access to Twitter internals and did not report any "shadowbanning" functionality. It's fair to assume that they would have reported it if it existed.

No, I don't think it's understandable for Musk to respond to someone stalking him by modifying Twitter policies to retaliate against another person with no connection to the stalking.

◧◩◪
13. archag+141[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 04:59:45
>>George+ZN
Yes, it's a common rhetorical approach to take a valid point from the opposing side and to parrot it back at them, even if it doesn't make sense, in order to dilute the original. Say it enough times and people believe it without thinking.
14. Lendal+G41[view] [source] 2022-12-17 05:07:59
>>camjoh+(OP)
If someone did want to assassinate lil X as he flew on a plane, they would simply buy a radio and listen in to his pilot, who is constantly "doxxing" Musk in real time, every minute of every day, as he talks to air traffic control. Why would you rely on some kid posting to social media very inaccurate and second-hand information, when you could just listen in to his coordinates broadcasting live on the radio, or at least install an app such as Flightly?
◧◩◪
15. George+O41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 05:09:07
>>b0sk+0Q
That's not what conservatism is. If you want the actual best quote about conservatism, it's this one:

> There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

- G. K. Chesterton

(Also, "conservative" and "right-wing" are not the same thing)

replies(4): >>camjoh+ic1 >>giantr+Fg1 >>mindsl+ei1 >>ZeroGr+Ft1
◧◩◪◨
16. skinny+gb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 06:16:10
>>ShredK+o01
I don’t think there’s any left wing extremism on HN. This is an insanely capitalist site. It could help your political worldview to not see the world from an overweighted American perspective, which is quite right wing.
◧◩◪◨
17. camjoh+ic1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 06:30:39
>>George+O41
This is exactly it, people confuse conservatism with fascism, just like they confuse liberalism with communism.
◧◩◪◨
18. giantr+Fg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 07:33:21
>>George+O41
You're describing small c conservatism, actually being conservative about change. It's a valid point of view and at least debatable. Even the most progressive person is conservative about some things.

The GP's comment is describing the capital C Conservatism brand. It's subsumed the idea about being politically conservative and combined it with an astounding mix of racism, bigotry, and in many cases outright fascism. It's weaponized the Chesterson Fences concept describing some fantasy "back in the day" utopia that only institutionalized racism, bigotry, and fascism will bring back into existence.

Unfortunately for the small c conservatives the big C Conservatives have turned their descriptor into their brand name and polluted debate about conservative politics.

replies(1): >>webere+lV1
◧◩◪◨
19. mindsl+ei1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 07:50:31
>>George+O41
While I agree that's a great description of the general concept of conservativism, it has absolutely nothing to do with the people calling themselves conservatives these days. The best I can come up with is that it describes where they started off before they got so mad and wanting to tear everything down.

I had never voted for a major party candidate in a national election before, but in 2020 I found myself voting for Biden out of a genuine sense of conservatism.

◧◩◪◨
20. ZeroGr+Ft1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 10:06:36
>>George+O41
I think thats an obviously false cover story, along the lines of "states rights". By plotting when these "principles" are followed or broken you can map the real motives.

For a centuries long historical review see:

The Reactionary Mind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reactionary_Mind

> It argues that conservatism from the 17th century to today is based on the principle "that some are fit, and thus ought, to rule others".[1]: 18 [2] Robin argues that rather than being about liberty, limited government, resistance to change, or public virtue, conservatism is a "mode of counterrevolutionary practice" to preserve hierarchy and power.[1]: 17

replies(1): >>George+6p2
◧◩◪◨⬒
21. webere+lV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 14:51:55
>>giantr+Fg1
"Capital X" means there's an official party with that name. I have no idea what you're talking about.
replies(1): >>ZeroGr+ux2
◧◩◪◨⬒
22. George+6p2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 17:34:54
>>ZeroGr+Ft1
I should think that I know my own mind, and those of my self-described conservative friends and acquaintances, better than some randon guy I've never heard of. But please, tell me more about my secret plots
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
23. ZeroGr+ux2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 18:19:50
>>webere+lV1
Capital X tries to distinguish the political label from the the adjective:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_S...

Vs

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/conservative

[go to top]