zlacker

> There is plenty of evidence[...] that whatever they're doing now works better than what they were doing in the past.

You just moved the goalposts. (In this case, moved them such that your "argument" is just restating the substance of the complaint.) Wikimedia is bringing in a lot more money doing this sort of thing. That's well understood—by all, i.e., those on both sides of the issue.

Your job is not to defend the position that the aggressive ads bring in more donations, but that if they weren't using them then "they wouldn't make _any_ money". Please leave dishonest sleights of hand at the door.

>>cxr+(OP)
I thought "any" would be understood to be rhetorical exaggeration; my apologies. My actual position I've posited is an org loses support of the hacker community when it becomes successful even if nothing about what it's doing fundamentally changes. If their ads are different now, it's because they refined their approach; the goal was always to get people to give them money to be used as they saw fit.

>>shadow+Z3
The banners have become more intrusive and obnoxious as the organisation has become richer. Ten years ago, they were quite mild by comparison. You wouldn't get ten reminders, the banners didn't cover your entire screen, and they didn't beseech you not to scroll away.

A couple of years ago a Wikimedia Foundation fundraising report explained why that "Don't scroll away" phrase was added:

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“Don’t Scroll Away”

A simple, yet effective phrase that we were surprised to see resonate with readers worldwide was simply asking readers not to “scroll away” from or “scroll past” the fundraising message in the banner. We believe that addressing the context in which people donate helps improve the donation rate.

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Quoted from this report: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2019-20_Report

>>shadow+Z3
Sure, a classic motte-and-bailey. I'm familiar.

Feel free to provide an actual argument against any one of the following:

- Wikipedia is not short on cash

- The current ads are misleading and intrusive

- The ads of years past were successful despite not being this misleading or intrusive

- The point you're trying to raise, when you're not being mercurial about it (the point about "support of the hacker community" for causes "on the edge of pauper") is, even if we assume it to be true, has no place in this discussion, in light of the circumstances (i.e. what's true about the subject we're discussing—and what isn't true, either)

>>cxr+2E
Sure. If you don't want to discuss hacker bias against success via using the tools that are demonstrated successful because they're not "virtuous" tools, I can't force you. It's the only piece of this I'm interested in though.

>>shadow+lG
In other words, what you're ostensibly here to discuss has nothing to do with WMF's campaign in light of the actual circumstances, and you've shown a willingness to make a bunch of indefensible claims along the way—only to say that you were never really serious about those things. There's no good reason for anyone to attempt to discuss anything with you when the only thing you seem to actually be committed to is the use of misdirection while hoping no one notices.