zlacker

[parent] [thread] 23 comments
1. _glsb+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-10-12 11:05:49
They don't though. The banner has a whiny tone, but never do they say that they are struggling to keep the site up.
replies(4): >>Macha+11 >>omnico+31 >>sokolo+43 >>akolbe+C3
2. Macha+11[view] [source] 2022-10-12 11:15:04
>>_glsb+(OP)
Oh please, the mentions of having to seek alternative funding models like subscriptions and ads are clearly meant to raise the image of a site on the brink of unsustainability to potential donors
replies(2): >>akolbe+r4 >>jevgen+Ny
3. omnico+31[view] [source] 2022-10-12 11:15:09
>>_glsb+(OP)
Read the screenshot: "... humbly ask you to defend Wikipedia's independence", "if you donate... Wikipedia could keep thriving for years".

The question as to whether this is manipulative isn't "is there are any clear statement of fact that is unambiguously a lie even in the most charitable possible interpretation?", it's "will this make ill-informed readers think their donations are necessary for Wikipedia's survival, and is this impression created deliberately?"

I think that's a very obvious "yes and yes".

replies(1): >>_glsb+8y
4. sokolo+43[view] [source] 2022-10-12 11:31:19
>>_glsb+(OP)
Read the donation page and see if you feel the same way:

https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Landi...

We ask you, humbly, to help.

We'll get straight to the point: Today we ask you to defend Wikipedia's independence.

We're a non-profit that depends on donations to stay online and thriving, but 98% of our readers don't give; they simply look the other way. If everyone who reads Wikipedia gave just a little, we could keep Wikipedia thriving for years to come. The price of a cup of coffee is all we ask.

...

We know that most people will ignore this message. But if Wikipedia is useful to you, please consider making a donation of or whatever you can to protect and sustain Wikipedia.

replies(1): >>jevgen+Zw
5. akolbe+C3[view] [source] 2022-10-12 11:34:52
>>_glsb+(OP)
I agree with the other replies.

Also, last year, the then-Wikimedia CEO Katherine Maher was on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. (The wife of the WMF’s PR consultant, the Clinton Foundation’s Craig Minassian, works on the show as a producer.)

In the interview, Noah put it to Maher that the downside of being a non-profit is that “you often struggle to have enough money to keep Wikipedia up and running. So, two parts. One, is that true and how does it affect you, and then, two, why would you make this thing if it’s not going to make you money?”

Maher’s cheerful answer made no reference to the WMF’s vast money reserves, but emphasised that Wikipedia’s lack of ads was responsible for the site being so trusted today.

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/wikipedia-endownemnt-fundrais...

If you are in the US, you can view the interview clip here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKdn1s9Sjfo&t=270s

If you're in the UK or Europe, use a VPN (Opera e.g. has got one built in).

replies(2): >>m4lvin+ub >>Michae+Xh
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6. akolbe+r4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 11:41:49
>>Macha+11
The implied subscription threat is a complete red herring. They should be ashamed for even mentioning it in their fundraising messages.

Wikipedians wouldn't work for free for a subscription service. The whole project would fork to a new host. The Wikimedia Foundation's own mission statement says, "The Foundation will make and keep useful information from its projects available on the internet free of charge, in perpetuity."

https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/mission/

replies(1): >>denton+Za
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7. denton+Za[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 12:25:53
>>akolbe+r4
Much the same applies to the Mozilla Foundation.

You can't contribute donations to Firefox; you can only contribute to the Mozilla Foundation, which spends most of the money it gets from donations on things that aren't Firefox.

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8. m4lvin+ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 12:29:21
>>akolbe+C3
Side note: No VPN needed, the video is not gebolocked, at least ffrom NL.
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9. Michae+Xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 13:06:29
>>akolbe+C3
A significant amount of their donations came in during 2021 and 2022.

That episode of the Daily Show was around April 2021. So, their funds were much smaller then.

From the article: “In 2021, the appeals raised a total of $162 million, a 50% year-on-year increase.

replies(2): >>rat998+fx >>akolbe+OH
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10. jevgen+Zw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:15:23
>>sokolo+43
Yes, it's in a whiny tone. The fact that it will go down is your interpretation. An alternative interpretation could be "98% of people get asymmetric value out of Wikipedia, please make it less asymmetric".

In fact, if they stop begging, what percentage of their users will contribute? Will it remain at 2%?

replies(2): >>sokolo+sy >>akolbe+qS
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11. rat998+fx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:16:56
>>Michae+Xh
They were rich way before that. You can find older articles about it.
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12. _glsb+8y[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:21:01
>>omnico+31
I mean, it's basic English. "Independence" doesn't mean "just enough for server maintenance" and "thriving" doesn't mean "barely surviving".
replies(1): >>omnico+YC
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13. sokolo+sy[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:22:31
>>jevgen+Zw
What else would "We ask you, humbly, to help...We're a non-profit that depends on donations to stay online" mean if not to raise the possibility to go down is present?
replies(1): >>_glsb+mz
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14. jevgen+Ny[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:23:36
>>Macha+11
Sure. And if you accept those images or not is your thing. Their banners are super annoying at only 2% conversion rate. What will it be without those banners?
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15. _glsb+mz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:25:13
>>sokolo+sy
That they are a non-profit funded by donations, maybe? Just a wild guess. /s
replies(1): >>sokolo+Au1
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16. omnico+YC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 14:38:23
>>_glsb+8y
They have enough money to fund wikipedia in perpetuity several times over. Wikipedia's independence and thrivingness aren't at any risk whatsoever, even if donations were to completely stop immediately.

The donations are used for side projects almost all donors are completely unaware of, whose existence and nature are not hinted at in the ads soliciting donations.

replies(2): >>Macha+db1 >>_glsb+QB3
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17. akolbe+OH[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 15:00:37
>>Michae+Xh
Back in 2015, the Washington Post published an article titled "Wikipedia has a ton of money. So why is it begging you to donate yours?":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12...

At the time they had reported net assets in excess of $77 million. Even by mid-2020, that had increased to $180 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation#Financial...

The Wikimedia Foundation had an 8-figure surplus in 9 of the last 10 years. The only exception was 2013/2014, where the surplus was "only" $8.3M. That was their "worst year" in the last ten years. The Wikimedia Foundation has beaten its own annual revenue record every year of its existence.

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18. akolbe+qS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 15:40:25
>>jevgen+Zw
You mean, what percentage of users will pay for using a website advertised as "The Free Encyclopedia", written by unpaid volunteers?

Just saying. If the WMF were working flat out on serving the volunteer community it would be a different matter. But it's taken on a life of its own, with Wikipedia as its cash cow.

replies(1): >>jevgen+2C3
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19. Macha+db1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 16:59:03
>>omnico+YC
Well the risk is they'd invest too much into saving the side projects in the event of a downturn that they would put wikipedia at risk, which is why even people like me who don't have ideological squabbles with the content of the side projects are concerned by the bundling.
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20. sokolo+Au1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 18:26:16
>>_glsb+mz
"...to stay online" is relevant in that clause.
replies(1): >>jevgen+XB3
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21. _glsb+QB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-13 09:54:41
>>omnico+YC
Again, problems with basic communication, it seems. Perpetuity means "forever". Because they have a finite amount of money and they are not generating money, they can't "fund wikipedia in perpetuity several times over".

They way they DO stay online for a resilient amount of time is by generating money, i.e. through donations.

In fact, they used to say exactly how many months they have left. Now they don't say that, because they feel they can allow themselves that. Does that mean that it makes sense to stop fundraising? No. Because the minute the public doesn't feel that there's an urgency in donating to your cause, then it's someone else's problem, meaning it's nobody's problem and that's how you kill NPOs.

replies(1): >>omnico+vL3
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22. jevgen+XB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-13 09:55:35
>>sokolo+Au1
Which is still true.
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23. jevgen+2C3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-13 09:56:21
>>akolbe+qS
No, I'm asking how many people will donate, if everybody thinks that it's not urgent and somebody else will?
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24. omnico+vL3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-13 11:49:21
>>_glsb+QB3
I suggest reading up about endowments. [1]

Money generates money. To fund something in perpetuity you need enough that the returns from investing it (taking into account tax, costs, inflation, etc) exceed the annual payment needed. This is not an infinite amount.

I haven't checked the figures but the article claims the foundation has $400 million cash and Wikipedia costs under $2 million per annum. There's no easy way of calculating the maximum annual sum that can be taken out in perpetuity from a well managed endowment but it's certainly a lot more than 0.5%.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment

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