zlacker

[parent] [thread] 65 comments
1. sbf501+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-09-22 14:56:25
I'd like to see similar study about the original gateway drug: "24-hour News Channels", which was followed by "24-hour Outrage-News Channels". Seems like we've been building toward this, the interactivity of the internet was the paradigm shift (to use a 90's term). EDIT: I realize it isn't news messing with youths' self-esteem (well, in some cases it is), but it is related in that the media is custom-made to drive engagement at all costs.
replies(10): >>mcrad+g2 >>gergov+V9 >>swayvi+ab >>duxup+qj >>oDot+NN >>lifeis+Jl1 >>oblib+ns1 >>tomcam+lF1 >>baby+862 >>LanceH+v62
2. mcrad+g2[view] [source] 2022-09-22 15:04:01
>>sbf501+(OP)
Engagement with broadcast TV vs with hyper-personalized apps is a specious comparison.
replies(4): >>svacha+i3 >>klodol+s3 >>jjtheb+N5 >>viridi+gd
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3. svacha+i3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:07:33
>>mcrad+g2
The psychological manipulation is based on the same principles, it's just the application is less refined.
replies(1): >>samatm+q4
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4. klodol+s3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:08:00
>>mcrad+g2
Do you care to elaborate? Why do you say it's specious?
replies(1): >>mcrad+p6
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5. samatm+q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:12:09
>>svacha+i3
It is and it isn't, but mostly, it isn't.

The relentless Skinner Boxing which Facebook and similar platforms engage in has no parallel in broadcast media, which can't be algorithmically tuned to harm the victim as much as possible.

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6. jjtheb+N5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:17:13
>>mcrad+g2
TiVo monetized hyper-personalized broadcast TV, by interposing ads based on all sorts of calculated data, into recorded broadcast TV streams, though.

So it's more continuous a transition i suspect than people consider.

replies(1): >>kurthr+1i
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7. mcrad+p6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:19:44
>>klodol+s3
Well engagement implies a certain amount to decision making and real-time action. TV watching is pretty much passive, and I just have a hard time believing the brain is impacted similarly but such different types of activity.
replies(2): >>sbf501+09 >>klodol+Nz
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8. sbf501+09[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:28:33
>>mcrad+p6
I don't think that qualifies as "specious" because I'm not trying to deceive anyone. You missed the part where I stated TV isn't interactive. I tried to pose a question in good faith. Did I fail? I am interested in information. Using the term "specious" incorrectly, deliberately or accidentally, is a judgement of the basis of my argument, which is actually specious.
replies(1): >>mcrad+DD1
9. gergov+V9[view] [source] 2022-09-22 15:31:06
>>sbf501+(OP)
Right, engagement at all cost it is, but there is a fundamental difference. Television required professionals where even wrestling and reality TV is scripted: it requires some sort of willful ignorance from the viewer to engage with it.

Social media pushes the illusion that you are not engaging with professionals but peers, and the dominant signals (how many views, likes, comments, etc.) of this day and age were not present with TV. This seriously messes with the innate reasoning of most humans, because for all our individualism we are norm conforming herd animals.

Show a kid a celebrity pushing something and they can tell it's fake. If the same thing is pushed by all of their friends, now we're in the territory of peer pressure which is a different ball game!

replies(6): >>otikik+9l >>pjc50+0m >>giantg+7s >>PuppyT+gt >>mawise+ox >>kennen+j51
10. swayvi+ab[view] [source] 2022-09-22 15:35:29
>>sbf501+(OP)
Books, radio, tv, videogames, internet, vr...

A progression of machines for interacting with dreams more deeply. A progreassion of better and better dream amplifiers.

Dreams becoming a bigger part of our life

Expert dreamers making the big bucks

A whole population with one foot in dreamland.

You ever noticed how fiction is everywhere? And advertising. And propaganda.

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11. viridi+gd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 15:43:19
>>mcrad+g2
People aren't as unique and individualized as one might think. A half dozen channels, and thus permutations of outrage content is likely plenty enough to capture the overwhelming majority of the population's attention.
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12. kurthr+1i[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:00:39
>>jjtheb+N5
TiVo allowed you to skip ads. Was there an earlier or later version?

You own the recording... I know there's still 5-15-30sec skip.

Hulu, Roku, et al do of course insert their own ads because they're ad supported.

13. duxup+qj[view] [source] 2022-09-22 16:05:57
>>sbf501+(OP)
My father in law, who suffers from parkinson's calls me several times a day to leave me voice mails about how terrible the world is and how scared he is about what is coming.

If there's a hell I hope there is a special place for 24-hour news channels and folks who feed fear and skewed garbage to people and hurt them.

I sometimes wish I could run a 24 hour news channel that tried to do more of a mix of content / etc. It might not be popular, or profitable, but it wouldn't be doom and gloom and conflict and bait all day. Maybe some stories about rando people's lives and other things?

replies(1): >>lo_zam+Uu
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14. otikik+9l[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:14:40
>>gergov+V9
> some sort of willful ignorance

Not "some sort of willful ignorance". It just requires "ignorance". I think most of us know someone who thinks that reality TV is ... well, reality. "It says it in the name".

> Show a kid a celebrity pushing something and they can tell it's fake

Perhaps you have very bright kids. My kid will ask me to buy two of whatever that person is pushing. He's simply not equipped to handle marketing at any level, yet.

replies(2): >>mattne+2L >>Mandie+Sh1
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15. pjc50+0m[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:18:53
>>gergov+V9
> it requires some sort of willful ignorance from the viewer to engage with it.

> Show a kid a celebrity pushing something and they can tell it's fake

This does not explain the Alex Jones show.

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16. giantg+7s[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:47:16
>>gergov+V9
"Right, engagement at all cost it is"

Ha I actually read this as enragement, which I don't think is even a real word.

replies(1): >>classi+ZM
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17. PuppyT+gt[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:53:00
>>gergov+V9
I don't really agree with this. Rush Limbaugh successfully ran a platform on mostly entirely television that deeply poisoned the cultural landscape of the USA at the time (he was defending Reagan's neglect of HIV/AIDS and playing "another one bites the dust" when Freddie Mercury died), and laid the foundation on current polarized rhetoric strategies. He spread lies that Obama wasn't a natural born citizen. He blamed volcano eruptions on the Affordable Care Act. So on and so forth. It's spurious to claim that outrage bait on television hasn't messed up people's brains just because the internet is doing a better job at it. They're just modeling what television was already successfully doing.
replies(2): >>advant+VY >>deltar+Tc1
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18. lo_zam+Uu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:59:16
>>duxup+qj
You'd go out of business.

I'm not dismissing malice or opportunism in the media, but it is also important to appreciate the situation mass news media is in. Mass media are extremely dependent on things like advertising and that's always been the case for as long mass media have existed. The price of subscription or buying a paper is simply too meager to cover the costs of running a paper, for example. Advertising introduces its own perverse incentives and limitations (you can't bite the hand that feeds you, for example).

24 hour news are, for the most part, useless, so they've got to fill the air time with sensationalized garbage, and because there's an arms race, the sensantionalism escalates.

replies(1): >>wizofa+md2
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19. mawise+ox[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:10:30
>>gergov+V9
Facebook brought us in with the promise of keeping in touch with friends, but the incentives are to "engagement at all costs". I'm hoping that if we can offer an alternative that lets people keep up with their friends without the engagememt incentive then we could greatly improve societal mental health. Thats why I build Haven[1] as open source and self hosted, along with several 3rd party hosting providers. No central entity means no "engagement at all costs".

[1] https://havenweb.org

replies(2): >>nkings+SC >>dylan6+bE
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20. klodol+Nz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:21:13
>>mcrad+p6
I think "engagement" in the discussion here is more of a term of art, and it's not really a question of what it implies.
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21. nkings+SC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:36:10
>>mawise+ox
This is a tragedy of the commons situation because people cannot help themselves.

What we are actually seeing is users going to TikTok because it is even more engaging.

People may say they want to keep up with their friends, but they will choose the more engaging activity.

There is no regulating or out-competing it.

Governments should provide identification, communication, community, payments, etc platforms for their citizens, but entertainment is always going to look like this unless stoicism is somehow engrained into our culture.

Entertainment itself is measured by engagement, so it will end with unlimited personalized ai generated content that will be almost impossible to put down.

replies(1): >>dylan6+rE
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22. dylan6+bE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:40:58
>>mawise+ox
I never used Friendster, and thought that everyone spending so much time on MySpace was just wasting time. However, I'd love for socials to be back to just MySpace levels of people engaging with each other, sharing music, etc vs the ad engagement driven by ads instead of common interests.
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23. dylan6+rE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:42:28
>>nkings+SC
>This is a tragedy of the commons situation because people cannot help themselves.

SOME people cannot help themselves. I spend 0 minutes on social platforms. I can help myself just fine. Some people have much more addictive personality traits than others. Please, don't paint everyone with the same broad brush. It doesn't help the conversation in a meaningful manner

replies(2): >>nkings+rG >>classi+IM
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24. nkings+rG[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:51:18
>>dylan6+rE
First off you’re on hn, which is social media and absolutely optimized for your specific engagement.

I also figured the “some” was implied because the world is a complicated place. I do believe we all have our weaknesses, though mindless consumption is more attractive to some than others.

replies(1): >>dylan6+D01
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25. mattne+2L[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 18:15:29
>>otikik+9l
I’m not sure we’re equipped as a society, otherwise why would marketing budgets be so high?

I know adults who voted for Trump because they believed the apprentice gave them an unvarnished view of his character and decision making prowess in the real world. My own grandmother would cite episodes of the show.

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26. classi+IM[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 18:24:22
>>dylan6+rE
> I spend 0 minutes on social platforms.

You're spending time on HN.

replies(1): >>eimrin+a11
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27. classi+ZM[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 18:26:07
>>giantg+7s
It has become a real word by now. Culture changes, language adapts.
replies(1): >>wizofa+Qc2
28. oDot+NN[view] [source] 2022-09-22 18:29:59
>>sbf501+(OP)
You've reminded me of a very good Norm bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2ktWtIDQQQ

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29. advant+VY[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:22:27
>>PuppyT+gt
I believe Rush did become famous on television, but after the mid-90s it was really all about his radio program. So it might be to your point, fundamentally it isn't the internet, or TV, maybe it was radio.

I do believe that the Rush style radio talk show lays the foundation for Tucker Carlson and all of the conservative pundit TV programming. Which is the basis for the problems we see with Facebook / Fake News etc.

replies(1): >>derac+WZ
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30. derac+WZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:27:42
>>advant+VY
One can trace that lineage in conservative thought back to the John Birch Society.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

replies(1): >>pyuser+no1
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31. dylan6+D01[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:31:01
>>nkings+rG
If you equate HN to actual social platforms then okay.

The HN "algo" is user driven by fellow readers up-voting/down-voting which is much more common interests. There are no "friend" relations on HN. The other platforms are all advertising based algo driven with intentional doping to make people addicted to the platform. This isn't even apples-to-oranges comparison.

After the dust from Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers settles and everything gets evaluated, I sincerly hope that Meta/Zuck,et.al gets investigated in the same line as Purdue.

replies(1): >>cma+Nd1
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32. eimrin+a11[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:34:16
>>classi+IM
But he is not spending time on social platform.
replies(1): >>smsm42+Nc1
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33. kennen+j51[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:56:37
>>gergov+V9
> Show a kid a celebrity pushing something and they can tell it's fake.

No, they cant.

How many kids believe the photoshop pics they see?

Not to single her out, but Kim K is now selling headphones and her pic in her ad makes her look like a character from the sims. This is NOT how a normal human being looks without hours of photoshop work.

There is a reason we use to have laws around advertising to children.. they are too young to understand things.. this is also why you cant legally enter into a contract with a minor.

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34. smsm42+Nc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 20:40:41
>>eimrin+a11
And he can't wait to tell the Internet how proud he is about that.
replies(1): >>dylan6+Bh1
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35. deltar+Tc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 20:40:59
>>PuppyT+gt
This is a really weird comment, because Limbaugh was almost entirely radio. His TV show was short-lived and not really popular, as he wasn't comfortable in the medium and it showed. He got his start in radio as a DJ, and went on to basically remake the AM band from farm reports and local sports talk to talk radio as we now know it.

This is really basic bio stuff about Limbaugh, and it doesn't speak well of your other assertions if you got this part so wrong.

What's really funny is that during the 90s the "Greatest Threat To Democracy Ever" WAS talk radio, more or less solely because the Limbaugh program was so popular. The targets may change, but the talking points never seem to.

replies(1): >>PuppyT+se1
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36. cma+Nd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 20:44:34
>>dylan6+D01
Reddit is vote based so would you include that too? HN also has advertising (it has hiring ads for ycombinator companies put in as mostly organic-looking posts with no [ad] tag).
replies(1): >>dylan6+ek1
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37. PuppyT+se1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 20:49:05
>>deltar+Tc1
Hey, thanks for correcting me. You're right that the issue was Limbaugh's radio program, not his TV. I apologize for getting my example wrong, but I think my overall point is still a valid one (that just because social media is more effective at spewing bad rhetoric doesn't mean bad rhetoric is ineffective in other media).
replies(1): >>dr_dsh+ls1
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38. dylan6+Bh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 21:06:40
>>smsm42+Nc1
Only in relation to a thread about how much time people are spending on the socials. It's part of the conversation. That's kind of how the work.
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39. Mandie+Sh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 21:08:07
>>otikik+9l
Up to now, I have vigorously shielded my toddler from marketing - as far as he knows, the TV occasionally shows holiday church services and election results, and "his" laptop shows fairly non-violent excerpts from BBC animal documentaries and bird-watching videos (he's taken to asking to watch by making the slurping sounds the desert rain frog in his favorite video makes as it's eating termites, then exclaiming "froggy!").

I know he needs to be exposed to some marketing while I'm watching along to talk about it so he isn't completely defenseless against it later, but I don't think that time is quite yet. So far, I'm going with his being able to separate "real" from "pretend" as a minimum.

replies(1): >>jdouga+3y1
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40. dylan6+ek1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 21:23:09
>>cma+Nd1
I don't want to get into an argument about what an ad is, but I think we all understand what the difference of ad driven algos on the social platforms vs hiring blogs, Who's Hiring, etc on this platform.

Also, I just never have liked Reddit.

41. lifeis+Jl1[view] [source] 2022-09-22 21:33:02
>>sbf501+(OP)
We have been gamified. But then again spending 6 hours a day reading celebrity magazines to r watching daytime TV will equally rot our sense of balance.

We some how think this would be six hours replaced with "improving our minds", visiting museums and working on our calculus or oil painting.

I mean we could all do that. we more or less force our children to do that at school.

If there was a "improve my mind" button on facebook, do you think we would all press it?

I am torn between my pessimism and optimism

replies(2): >>Xeoncr+pm1 >>sbf501+Jy3
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42. Xeoncr+pm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 21:36:30
>>lifeis+Jl1
National parks in the US experienced a surge in interest after the covid lockdowns. I have hope that while more people might be falling into the unhealthy trap of news and social media - a lot of people are breaking free and exploring the world and it's people and places.
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43. pyuser+no1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 21:49:08
>>derac+WZ
Why stop there? Why not Fr. Coughlin or William Jennings Bryan?
replies(1): >>ch4s3+tq1
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44. ch4s3+tq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:00:54
>>pyuser+no1
Why stop there Girolamo Savonarola was doing it in the 15th century, or Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus.
replies(2): >>dr_dsh+Ks1 >>Tainno+Xo2
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45. dr_dsh+ls1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:12:52
>>PuppyT+se1
Your point was valid but your example was creepily wrong.
replies(1): >>oyashi+iR1
46. oblib+ns1[view] [source] 2022-09-22 22:12:55
>>sbf501+(OP)
>>I'd like to see similar study about the original gateway drug: "24-hour News Channels"

Back in the early 80s I was living in LA and I'd grab some food on the way home from work and the "News" on an independent station. They had 3 half hour News show back to back. They started out with "Local News", then moved on to "National News", and finally "World News".

At first it didn't seem much different than the big 3 Networks. Everyday I'd come home from work feeling fine but after a few months of doing that I realized by the end of the last broadcast I was very depressed.

It finally occurred to me, after a few months, that the station was gathering every tragedy they could find, rapes, robberies, murders, wars, airplane and auto crashes, etc. So I decided to stop watching it and immediately went back to my normal, happy, content self.

Since I've learned to monitor the "News" as opposed to consuming it and that's much easier to do when we can pick and choose what to consume and ignore it with just a click or tap. And since then I've had quite a few friends and relatives who're happy and content before and are now in a constant state of rage because they're pretty much addicted to watching FOX/CNN/MSNBC, etc.

That said, I would love to see a serious study on this because it's grown into a serious and national mental heath problem here in the U.S.

replies(1): >>theGnu+3A1
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47. dr_dsh+Ks1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:15:15
>>ch4s3+tq1
> Savonarola

Love that the Catholic Church burned him at the stake for being too conservative. Really! Go Renaissance Popery!!

replies(1): >>ch4s3+tu1
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48. ch4s3+tu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:26:46
>>dr_dsh+Ks1
Well, heresy and schism officially. But he was more of a populist than conservative and also weirdly sided with the invading French king which kind of pissed off the pope.
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49. jdouga+3y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:52:52
>>Mandie+Sh1
Start with advertising from the past and work your way forward? It looks lame now, but that stuff used to consistently work.
replies(1): >>person+8a2
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50. theGnu+3A1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 23:04:51
>>oblib+ns1
It’s been well studied. We know the ad suppprted news make us sad. Don’t watch the news.

NPR and PBS are the best if you have to.

  I think someone could make a few billion running a positive happy news channel.
replies(2): >>sbf501+AV1 >>retzke+Jp3
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51. mcrad+DD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 23:31:32
>>sbf501+09
Strawman argument then? I'm simply disagreeing that cable TV has a similar kind of mental health impact referred to in the article, just because there are similarities in how they operate as economic/social entities. I have no reason to believe you are trying to deceive anyone and specious is a great word :)
replies(1): >>sbf501+WV1
52. tomcam+lF1[view] [source] 2022-09-22 23:46:38
>>sbf501+(OP)
> "24-hour Outrage-News Channels"

That’s the only kind

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53. oyashi+iR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 01:21:13
>>dr_dsh+ls1
People remember him for his TV program but get the effects from his radio program, not exactly a creepy mistake just association mistake which happens to anyone.
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54. sbf501+AV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 02:00:28
>>theGnu+3A1
I also like Reuters, BBC and Al Jazeera, but I think the beeb is under too much scrutiny at home, but I still find them fair-ish?
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55. sbf501+WV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 02:03:31
>>mcrad+DD1
> and specious is a great word :)

Lol, it is. :)

> Strawman argument then?

How about I rephrase, "Does 24-hour news have similar effects on viewers as this study shows social media has on kids, despite not being interactive?"

Yeah, I see your point. Apples and oranges. Still interested in that study.

56. baby+862[view] [source] 2022-09-23 03:43:03
>>sbf501+(OP)
People always attack the latest tech. If it’s not video games it’s TV, if it’s not TV its radio, etc.

Wait til VR is evil

57. LanceH+v62[view] [source] 2022-09-23 03:45:52
>>sbf501+(OP)
In the 80's, my grandmother was in a nursing home and we would receiver her mail. She would receive stacks of mail -- generally Democrat leaning, but not always -- with long copy outrage about Social Security or Medicare being eviscerated (There is a bill on the House floor now!!!) We suspect she donated and got on a list somehow, but the mail was pure outrage, all the time, and I'm sure it goes back much further than this.
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58. person+8a2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 04:20:19
>>jdouga+3y1
Talk about how media is produced. Every second is because someone made it so. None of it just happened.

Show them how it is done. How one can cut, edit and change the sound.

Ask who did it, for what reason, for which audience, to what end?

Equip them with the tools to question the things they see. Then they have the means to engage with marketing.

It’s a long road. There will be glitter and cheap plastic toys along the way.

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59. wizofa+Qc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 04:50:17
>>classi+ZM
Since about 1840 it seems: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Enragement&yea...
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60. wizofa+md2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 04:56:20
>>lo_zam+Uu
The only FTA 24 hour news channel we have in Australia is government funded, no advertising. Not sure if its existence helps prevent the proliferation of the sorts of channels that seem to exist in the US, though it hardly has any significant viewer numbers.
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61. Tainno+Xo2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 07:18:40
>>ch4s3+tq1
How do the Gracchi fit in here? They were certainly populist, but decidedly not socially conservative.
replies(1): >>ch4s3+3B6
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62. retzke+Jp3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 15:00:10
>>theGnu+3A1
> I think someone could make a few billion running a positive happy news channel.

Isn't that essentially what TikTok is? A 24/7 feed of all the positive, happy, dopamine-triggering content you could ever want, tailored to you. And yeah, they have.

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63. sbf501+Jy3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 15:39:10
>>lifeis+Jl1
> We some how think this would be six hours replaced with "improving our minds", visiting museums and working on our calculus or oil painting.

I'm in my 50's and am literally doing the latter two on weekends. Have I become a trope?!? lol.

replies(1): >>lifeis+A94
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64. lifeis+A94[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 18:52:35
>>sbf501+Jy3
Was the museum packed with hundreds of 20 somethings? if not then the "life long education" idea is not really catching on - you aren't a trope. You probably aren't a minority - barely make a cult I suspect :-)
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65. ch4s3+3B6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:57:21
>>Tainno+Xo2
The comparison is that they're all fire breathing populists that stoked resentment, dabbled in conspiracy theories, and encouraged violence. My point is that these figures have always existed and aren't confined to the contemporary left/right binary. There's just something about people that makes these figures inevitable.
replies(1): >>Tainno+kee
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66. Tainno+kee[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-27 12:18:49
>>ch4s3+3B6
I mean the Gracchi were undoubtedly populist, and were interested in their own benefit most of all but it's not like the resentment against a corrupt oligarchy that deprived most citizens of land came from nothing.
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