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1. JohnFe+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:18:54
$350k salaries _are_ lavish, though. It seems strange to me that people would argue otherwise.
replies(6): >>karmak+S >>random+91 >>dane-p+e4 >>Tulliu+P4 >>cheeze+66 >>mcguir+Wa
2. karmak+S[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:22:43
>>JohnFe+(OP)
I suppose they meant relatively speaking. Taking into account how massive of a project Wikipedia is and hence how much responsibility the position has.
replies(1): >>JohnFe+Ug
3. random+91[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:23:51
>>JohnFe+(OP)
Not in SF. Maybe there is a case to be made to move Wikipedia operations outside Bay area.
replies(1): >>akolbe+9e
4. dane-p+e4[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:36:22
>>JohnFe+(OP)
It may be lavish, but if an executive paid $350k is 35% less likely to make a mistake that would cost the organisation $1m (which is about 1% of their budget), compared to a volunteer working for free, then maybe, from the organisation's point of view, the expenditure is cheap.

Of course, judging performance like that is very difficult, and predicting it in advance is even harder, so it's possible that the highly paid executive would actually perform worse than a volunteer (or a random number generator), but if the complaint about "lavishness" is really about inequality (i.e. the executive's standard of living being much higher than they need / the median citizen's) then that criticism should probably be directed at the tax policies of the relevant governments.

replies(4): >>0xbadc+o9 >>zihotk+0e >>JohnFe+Zf >>Dylan1+2v
5. Tulliu+P4[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:38:41
>>JohnFe+(OP)
In a sense they are, but comparable to executive salaries at companies with roughly comparable tech/services, those salaries are probably very low.

Probably any tech company of note is paying "executives" far, far more than that, at least in the US.

replies(1): >>JohnFe+xg
6. cheeze+66[view] [source] 2022-09-14 18:43:43
>>JohnFe+(OP)
Uh, what?

SDEs with a few YOE are getting this no problem at top companies. Why wouldn't the CEO of the fifth biggest website on the internet?

replies(2): >>jhbadg+Ad >>JohnFe+ah
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7. 0xbadc+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 18:58:12
>>dane-p+e4
> from the organisation's point of view, the expenditure is cheap

But from any normal person's perspective, it's expensive.

The difference is who is in control and what are their priorities and influences. Since "the organization" is making the decisions - and, completely incidentally, "the CEO" is the head of "the organization" - it just so happens that "the organization" finds that "the CEO" should be paid lavishly.

Rich people gonna prioritize rich people.

replies(1): >>yupper+nt
8. mcguir+Wa[view] [source] 2022-09-14 19:04:29
>>JohnFe+(OP)
Sundar Pichai gets ~$250M. Parag Agrawal gets something like $30M.
replies(2): >>zihotk+6f >>Dma54r+Hp
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9. jhbadg+Ad[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:15:56
>>cheeze+66
But that's apples and oranges. People who work at those companies are presumably being paid that because they are (or at least believed to be) making more in profit for the company than they are being paid. It's the same reason why professional football players and movie actors make so much. But consider ballet dancers or stage actors -- they may be just as athletic or as good actors as the football players or movie actors are, but they are in a far less profitable field. So they make less. The people in these jobs are just motivated by their passion rather than by salary.
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10. zihotk+0e[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:17:28
>>dane-p+e4
I don't see any reason for an executive to be less likely to make a mistake. And considering that the core business is rock solid and didn't change much in last many years, I don't even see a potential for such mistake.
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11. akolbe+9e[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:18:36
>>random+91
Maybe there is a case for moving much of it outside the US? Lots of staffers work remotely anyway.
replies(1): >>random+Za1
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12. zihotk+6f[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:22:56
>>mcguir+Wa
Apples and oranges, you should instead compare it with other non-profits. According to top links in search for 'non profit ceo salary' give me average salary numbers about $150k
replies(2): >>kemayo+xn >>themit+qT
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13. JohnFe+Zf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:26:54
>>dane-p+e4
> if an executive paid $350k is 35% less likely to make a mistake that would cost the organisation $1m (which is about 1% of their budget), compared to a volunteer working for free, then maybe, from the organisation's point of view, the expenditure is cheap.

True, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe that's a realistic hypothetical at all.

replies(1): >>akolbe+Gw
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14. JohnFe+xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:29:03
>>Tulliu+P4
I don't think it's valid to think extravagant pay rates are not extravagant simply because other executives are also paid extravagant rates.

They are all a bit over-the-top.

replies(1): >>themit+mT
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15. JohnFe+Ug[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:30:53
>>karmak+S
I don't understand this. Do you think that an executive's responsibilities scale with the size of the enterprise? I don't think that's true.

In fact, I would argue that an executive at a small operation has more responsibility than one at a large operation.

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16. JohnFe+ah[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:31:38
>>cheeze+66
Those SDEs are also paid extravagantly.
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17. kemayo+xn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 19:58:04
>>zihotk+6f
I'd say it's still a tricky comparison because the WMF is (reductively) a tech company, and tech sector salaries remain pretty high. For a lot of roles they need to fill, they're competing with other tech companies for those employees, not just other nonprofits. A salary that's fantastic by average-nonprofit standards might be vastly underpaying someone who's deciding between a job at the WMF or Google.
replies(2): >>akolbe+AF >>LegitS+NG
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18. Dma54r+Hp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:09:14
>>mcguir+Wa
People working for them earn 100k+, Wikipedia has volunteers writhing the content for free.
replies(1): >>yupper+my
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19. yupper+nt[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:28:08
>>0xbadc+o9
> But from any normal person's perspective, it's expensive.

Why does it matter what that hypothetical "normal" person thinks? Does that "normal" person have insight into how much it costs to hire a competent executive?

replies(2): >>JohnFe+2w >>0xbadc+8y
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20. Dylan1+2v[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:35:41
>>dane-p+e4
> It may be lavish, but if an executive paid $350k is 35% less likely to make a mistake that would cost the organisation $1m (which is about 1% of their budget), compared to a volunteer working for free, then maybe, from the organisation's point of view, the expenditure is cheap.

They're not though. Especially not multiple of them providing the same service.

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21. JohnFe+2w[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:41:31
>>yupper+nt
It matters because "normal" people are the ones paying those extravagant salaries in the end.
replies(1): >>yupper+lx
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22. akolbe+Gw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:45:26
>>JohnFe+Zf
Some of the most expensive WMF execs have been complete disasters, exiting after a year or two and leaving the entire organisation in disarray.
replies(2): >>yupper+Iy >>themit+3T
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23. yupper+lx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:48:57
>>JohnFe+2w
Those normal people should know that $350k is a steal.
replies(1): >>tomrod+7B
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24. 0xbadc+8y[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:53:15
>>yupper+nt
The normal person knows that just having big paycheck does not make an executive more competent. We have all seen people with huge paychecks fail spectacularly.
replies(1): >>themit+tS
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25. yupper+my[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:54:12
>>Dma54r+Hp
If you want to compare it based on the people working for each company:

Parag has around 3900 employees. Wikipedia has around 550. Around 7x multiplier.

$30m / 7 = ~$4.3mil

Sundar has around 135k employees. 245x multiplier.

$250m / 245 = ~$1mil.

$350k seems like a steal no matter how you put it.

replies(1): >>akolbe+oG
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26. yupper+Iy[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 20:56:44
>>akolbe+Gw
Maybe they should spend more than $350k and find someone more competent.
replies(1): >>akolbe+qF
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27. tomrod+7B[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:09:28
>>yupper+lx
Indeed.
replies(1): >>akolbe+YZ
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28. akolbe+qF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:29:34
>>yupper+Iy
That reminds me of the saying, "We have the best politicians money can buy."
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29. akolbe+AF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:30:17
>>kemayo+xn
Why not hire in Europe, or Asia? Almost all of them work remotely.
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30. akolbe+oG[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:35:27
>>yupper+my
How about comparing it to the Internet Archive (2019)? 169 employees, $11M salary costs:

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943...

Wikimedia Foundation (2019): 291 employees, $56M salary costs.

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/200...

Less than twice the US employees, more than five times the salary costs. (Both orgs also have some non-US employees included in the salary costs total, but they are a small minority of the staff.)

replies(1): >>yupper+hK
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31. LegitS+NG[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:38:14
>>kemayo+xn
WMF is not a tech company, and their value is not in their tech. Their value is in their user created and populated content .
replies(2): >>themit+tT >>kemayo+Sb1
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32. yupper+hK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 21:55:24
>>akolbe+oG
$11mil / 169 = ~$65k / employee. So average pay at Internet Archive is barely over the median salary in the US? That's not good.

Salary costs don't need to be looked at as something to aggressively push down. You can treat your employees well while still being a non-profit.

(Though I'm not claiming wikipedia treats their employees well, I have no idea.)

replies(1): >>akolbe+gT
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33. themit+tS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:43:36
>>0xbadc+8y
Are you saying there's no correlation between salary and performance?
replies(1): >>fluori+g32
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34. themit+3T[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:46:12
>>akolbe+Gw
Can you provide an example?
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35. akolbe+gT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:48:05
>>yupper+hK
Well, ask yourself which org needs donations more urgently. (Last I looked the Internet Archive were being sued for lending scans of books – books they had physically bought – to one user at a time online.)
replies(1): >>yupper+rv3
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36. themit+mT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:48:41
>>JohnFe+xg
Extravagant is a subjective term and for pay it's relative to the location, position, experience, etc.
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37. themit+qT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:49:04
>>zihotk+6f
Compared to other non profit tech companies
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38. themit+tT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 22:49:24
>>LegitS+NG
So youtube isn't a tech company?
replies(1): >>chmod7+992
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39. akolbe+YZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-14 23:32:19
>>tomrod+7B
Only if you insist on hiring in the US – while at the same time talking all the time about how you want to fix the fact that you're underrepresented in many parts of the world, by asking some really expensive US staff to fix it ...
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40. random+Za1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 00:53:52
>>akolbe+9e
Yes. OTOH, United states has one of the best free speech protections in the world. It would make sense, to have the key people and data centers in the US. EU, however, has better privacy protection initiatives.
replies(1): >>akolbe+m82
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41. kemayo+Sb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 01:00:34
>>LegitS+NG
WMF is a company that's mostly engaged in maintaining a tech product, and much of its hiring needs are for people who'd otherwise be working in tech. If it's not in the tech sector then there's not any meaning to that category.
replies(1): >>chmod7+h72
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42. fluori+g32[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 08:39:13
>>themit+tS
There's no direct correlation, yes. If you took two executives (or really two people in any profession), one making 10x as much as the other, and swapped their positions, you would not see one position dropping to 10% performance and the other rising to 1000% performance. In all likelihood, they would both drop to 50-70% for a while and then stabilize to their original values.

Individual persons are not orders of magnitude more productive on their own, they're just in environments that allow them to be more productive, for example by giving them control over more resources.

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43. chmod7+h72[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 09:20:39
>>kemayo+Sb1
> If it's not in the tech sector then there's not any meaning to that category.

They're not in the business of selling/providing tech and there's nothing technologically novel about what they do. What they do is providing and managing an encyclopedia. Their value proposition isn't some tech, it's their content.

In fact you've got it the wrong way around, because if the bar to being a "tech company" was using or maintaining some sort of technology, then pretty much every company would be a tech company nowadays. In that scenario the category would be truly meaningless.

The easiest way to spot a tech company is looking at their R&D spending: a tech company is constantly exploring instead of just maintaining.

replies(1): >>mcguir+mq7
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44. akolbe+m82[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 09:30:06
>>random+Za1
Agreed, but staffers can be abroad (there are a few even now).
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45. chmod7+992[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 09:38:07
>>themit+tT
It's not. YouTube is an online video platform.

YouTube however is a subsidiary of Alphabet, which is a tech company.

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46. yupper+rv3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-15 16:35:49
>>akolbe+gT
Please focus on one thing at a time. I think you're starting to come around to the idea that maybe Wikipedia has an appropriate amount of funding and is spending an appropriate amount of money?

You can just keep moving the goal posts every time you get proven wrong.

Also, you were complaining about Wikipedia being in the US/SF, when the Internet Archive is also in SF.

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47. mcguir+mq7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-16 17:50:26
>>chmod7+h72
Neither Google nor Meta are tech companies, either. They're advertising companies.
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