zlacker

[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. robot+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-07-30 00:54:13
Remote attestation or not, "Software freedom" fighters should understand that things happen based on some user base need. Somebody needed this and they added it, whoever needs it doesn't care if they can't run linux on it. If the user cares about running anything else on the hardware, they will add a way to disable the feature. it is all about the user need.

if you are a secondary priority user on some hardware, the way to fix it is to focus on becoming important enough to be prioritized instead of fearing some technology will limit things.

replies(6): >>grishk+n >>MereIn+E >>blende+K4 >>jauer+36 >>matheu+l6 >>cesarb+Cc
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2. grishk+n[view] [source] 2022-07-30 00:58:51
>>robot+(OP)
> things happen based on some user base need

Of course not. Things happen based on what investors and developers want. Users are very much secondary. They're a nuisance. If things did really happen based on some user-base need, would we have had Instagram or Facebook in their current form?

replies(2): >>Rebelg+x >>robot+q1
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3. Rebelg+x[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 01:01:29
>>grishk+n
I think so? FB exists in its current form because they're worried about users preferring TikTok
replies(1): >>grishk+h1
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4. MereIn+E[view] [source] 2022-07-30 01:02:38
>>robot+(OP)
Somebody wanted this, but it might not be a user, and it might not fill any user need whatsoever. If I am the primary user of the hardware, my wants take precedence over anyone else, including the manufacturer and the software vendors.
replies(1): >>robot+L1
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5. grishk+h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 01:08:27
>>Rebelg+x
See, it's them being worried about it. Users are totally fine with there being different forms of social media. That is what users want. No one ever asked other social media companies to add TikTok-like functionality — they already have actual TikTok for that.
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6. robot+q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 01:09:26
>>grishk+n
There is some kind of balance since both of those are free. I'm sure they prioritize user engagement and any loss of users is inadvertent.
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7. robot+L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 01:12:25
>>MereIn+E
agreed, your wants take precedence. If there are enough buyers like you who care about hardware freedom they'll drop this feature.
replies(1): >>MereIn+a5
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8. blende+K4[view] [source] 2022-07-30 01:48:14
>>robot+(OP)
> "Software freedom" fighters should understand that things happen based on some user base need.

I wish that were true. However, I think the movie Tron (1982) sums this up very nicely.

From the movie Tron:

> Dr. Walter Gibbs: That MCP, that's half our problem right there.

> Ed Dillinger: The MCP is the most efficient way of handling what we do! I can't sit here and worry about every little user request that comes in!

> Dr. Walter Gibbs: User requests are what computers are for!

> Ed Dillinger: Doing our business is what computers are for.

We are now moving toward a world where all computers have a "MCP". No, it is not to solve user problems, it is to do the business of the corporations that designed it.

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9. MereIn+a5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 01:53:55
>>robot+L1
I was not making a market-based argument, as the preferences of other buyers is irrelevant. That Having purchased the hardware, that I wish to run software is the only justification required.

This is not something that is amenable to market-based solutions, as the market contains bad actors pushing for infringement of my ability to run software.

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10. jauer+36[view] [source] 2022-07-30 02:10:55
>>robot+(OP)
This. All these comments (and this article) worried that this is MS coming to take their Linux or whatever are missing that this is something their biggest customers want.

We need this in our corporate client device fleet to counter specific threats. We need this in our servers for the same reason — we do remote attestation today for Linux servers in semi-trusted locations. We’ve conveyed to our vendors that this is a desired capability in next-gen network equipment.

We’re not doing this to control data once it’s on an end-user’s computer. We’re doing it because we have a regulatory (and moral) obligation to protect the data that is entrusted to us.

We’re not Intel/AMD/NVIDIA/etc’s largest customer, but when we defer orders or shift vendor allocation it gets mentioned in their quarterly earnings reports. They tend to listen when we ask for features, and when our peer companies (not to mention governments) ask for the same thing because we have similar data security requirements?

Cloud and Business products is what, ~2/3rds of Microsoft’s revenue at this point? This isn’t being driven by the MPAA or whoever looking for better ways to screw over consumers.

replies(5): >>userbi+u7 >>novok+89 >>matheu+o9 >>66fm47+Am >>salawa+761
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11. matheu+l6[view] [source] 2022-07-30 02:14:15
>>robot+(OP)
"Somebody" means billion dollar corporations that already have way too much power over people. Their ability to want and actually realize this bleak attestation future needs to be regulated out of existence.
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12. userbi+u7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 02:28:49
>>jauer+36
We’re doing it because we have a regulatory (and moral) obligation to protect the data that is entrusted to us.

The same insane regulations that were probably the result of corporate lobbying are now the excuse for these hostile features? WTF?

replies(1): >>jauer+K9
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13. novok+89[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 02:48:38
>>jauer+36
I think if owners of devices have ultimate control over the root key / credential that determines attestation, I don't think people care about that.

So in your case, for devices you buy, you set up your corporate TPM key as the root owner, and then you send the device to employees, vendors, etc. The ownership chain is clear and you can send attestation requests. The corp is the owner of the device, and that is fairly obvious.

The issue is when people and corps buy devices, they do not have effective root. Microsoft, apple, google, etc have the tpm root key, and you as a corporation actually do not have root yourself. They can force you to do things you want to do. It makes you more vulnerable, because if it is in MSFTs interest (or they are coerced by the state to do so clandestinely) a lot of threats can happen, and you don't even need an 0day to do so!

If it starts becoming status quo, the freedom to do the things you need to your devices starts going away.

replies(1): >>jauer+ba
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14. matheu+o9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 02:52:59
>>jauer+36
> This isn’t being driven by the MPAA or whoever looking for better ways to screw over consumers.

Then they should prove it. I'm sure they have lots of expensive lobbyists under their employ, have them go to the government and tell the politicians the computer industry needs regulation to make it illegal to screw over users by depriving them of their computer freedom. If effective rules make it into law, I will trust their intentions.

replies(1): >>oaiey+jl
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15. jauer+K9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 02:59:39
>>userbi+u7
The regulations that were the result of lobbying by privacy and digital sovereignty advocates, contrary to the lobbying interests of Big Tech(tm)?

> are now the excuse for these hostile features

These features may be hostile if you don't control your own root of trust or if your vendor burns fuses prior to selling a device to you. If you were expecting otherwise, in that context they sold you a defective product.

Those same features are beneficial if you run your own root of trust. They help maintain control over your devices and increase confidence that they have not been coopted by your adversaries.

replies(1): >>salawa+q61
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16. jauer+ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 03:06:41
>>novok+89
> The issue is when people and corps buy devices, they do not have effective root.

Totally!

The answer isn't to ban the tech, it's to ensure that everyone can set their own root if they so choose.

Want your system to only load firmware that's been signed by Debian to ensure that unfree blobs aren't sneaking in? Great! That's basically what we want too (s/Debian/our own supply chain integrity folks/g but same concept).

replies(1): >>novok+qb
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17. novok+qb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 03:26:23
>>jauer+ba
The thing is, it's effectively impossible to politically guarantee that, so rather ban attestation than walk a fine line of 'your not allowed to do that'.
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18. cesarb+Cc[view] [source] 2022-07-30 03:44:15
>>robot+(OP)
> Somebody needed this and they added it, whoever needs it doesn't care if they can't run linux on it.

Originally, the ones who "needed" features like this this are the big content distributors. Without these features, it's too easy for normal people to extract content and give copies of it to their friends and family.

As a parallel development, another one who "needed" features like this is Microsoft, for a different reason. They were taking reputational damage from malware, and needed a way to prevent malware from running before their operating system kernel (malware loading after the operating system kernel could be contained by the normal security mechanisms like ACLs).

These two development threads had enough in common that they ended up merging together, and those who want to prevent copying content can now point to security as an excuse. And yes, neither of these two groups care if you can't run Linux on your own devices.

> if you are a secondary priority user on some hardware, the way to fix it is to focus on becoming important enough to be prioritized instead of fearing some technology will limit things.

I fully agree that this is our best defense. In fact, the only reason we can still run Linux on our desktops and notebooks is that, when SecureBoot was developed, Linux was already important enough. However, this could only happen because Linux had time to grow and become important enough (while being a "secondary priority user" of the hardware) before things started to become limited. Had SecureBoot come before Linux became important enough, running third party operating systems would not have been allowed, and Linux would not have had a chance to grow and gain importance.

replies(1): >>jstanl+1o
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19. oaiey+jl[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 06:01:39
>>matheu+o9
Let us formulate it like that: it is nowadays much bigger than MPAA related topics. They will happily join the party and bring snacks.
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20. 66fm47+Am[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 06:18:45
>>jauer+36
> We need this in our corporate client device fleet to counter specific threats

Can you please expand on what you verify via remote attestation and against which attack vectors this protects you?

Does this protect you against the usual attack vectors of your employees logging in on phishing sites, downloading malware, running office macros etc? Stealing your data usually does not need any root/kernel access.

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21. jstanl+1o[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 06:34:38
>>cesarb+Cc
> malware loading after the operating system kernel could be contained by the normal security mechanisms like ACLs

If this were true, how would the malware ever get itself to the point where it is loaded before the kernel is?

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22. salawa+761[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 15:27:19
>>jauer+36
>We’re not doing this to control data once it’s on an end-user’s computer. We’re doing it because we have a regulatory (and moral) obligation to protect the data that is entrusted to us.

>Cloud and Business products is what, ~2/3rds of Microsoft’s revenue at this point? This isn’t being driven by the MPAA or whoever looking for better ways to screw over consumers.

Except... Yes it is. When your Ur business case was "do computation on someone else's computer, but ensure the operator cannot have full transparent access to their own computer's operational details", you are in the end casting the first stone. Just because I don't have an LLC, or Inc. or other legal fiction tied to my name, doesn't mean I'm not bound by the same moral imperatives you claim to be, but more importantly (I am not willing to sell everyone else's computational freedom up the river for a pole of quick bucks).

Get your collective heads out of your arses. Get back out in the sun. This nonsense is ripping every last bit of potential computing ever had and ripping it out of the hands of the lay consumer unless they dance the blessed dance of upstream.

You do not know best. You think you do. You've gotten where you are without that which you seek to create, and once created, that which you make can and will never be taken back. It creates and magnifies too much power asymmetry.

My god, have you never really stopped to think through the ethical implications? To really walk down the garden path?

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23. salawa+q61[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 15:30:14
>>jauer+K9
So yes. Now the bar for rudimentary, independent computer use requires an understanding of the finer points of cryptography.

Do you not understand how insane that prospect is?

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