zlacker

[parent] [thread] 19 comments
1. robert+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-02-17 16:11:11
Yes, in general "free speech" platforms seem to quickly turn into Alt-Right platforms that are, ironically, heavily moderated. (Looking at you, Voat)
replies(5): >>optima+r5 >>ciphol+N6 >>zionic+3b >>webere+Zd >>DoItTo+892
2. optima+r5[view] [source] 2022-02-17 16:33:27
>>robert+(OP)
I've said this before, but it's particularly notable how free speech Reddit alternatives very quickly end up taking a far-right tone.

What's really funny is how all discussions they host have to be approached from that angle.

So you can't just talk about your favorite TV show. You have to first make a nod to how it features a Jewish conspiracy to push black-white interracial relationships. Only then can you go on to discuss the actual episode.

replies(1): >>fallin+Ib
3. ciphol+N6[view] [source] 2022-02-17 16:37:39
>>robert+(OP)
Because the only people who feel the personal need for a "free speech" platform are the ones whose views are considered odious elsewhere.

If people with non-"odious" views end up at such a platform, they will quickly notice the unusual concentration of "odious" views, and generally find it uncomfortable and leave. Thus there is a steady increase in the prevalence of "odious" views until they are near-universal on the platform.

replies(2): >>dundar+by >>dredmo+gK
4. zionic+3b[view] [source] 2022-02-17 16:52:31
>>robert+(OP)
Isn’t this just more evidence that leftism/liberalism require censorship to exist, as they cannot survive in a free market of ideas?
replies(4): >>krapp+Fb >>fallin+jd >>webere+je >>optima+bA
◧◩
5. krapp+Fb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 16:55:15
>>zionic+3b
No, it's evidence that people who claim to believe in a free market of ideas rarely do in practice.
◧◩
6. fallin+Ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 16:55:48
>>optima+r5
This is because Reddit was the original free speech platform, and you could find anything from any or no political leaning. Then they dropped free speech and kicked off right leaning content. So of course the alternatives quickly go right. If they had kicked off left wing content all of the free speech sites would be left, and you couldn't talk about your favorite TV show without going into the relative representation of different races in the cast.
replies(2): >>KerrAv+gk >>dredmo+cL
◧◩
7. fallin+jd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 17:01:23
>>zionic+3b
In the free speech days of Reddit there was all sorts of lefty content that did just fine in the presence of all the right wing stuff, so it's definately not not true. But the strange part is that a lot of people on the left implicitly think that it is true. They will never admit that to themselves, though.
8. webere+Zd[view] [source] 2022-02-17 17:04:17
>>robert+(OP)
You're not comparing a heavily moderated site to an a lightly moderated one. You're looking at a site that's just as over-moderated as Reddit, just in favor of the opposite side of the political spectrum. A better comparison would be something like /g/
◧◩
9. webere+je[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 17:05:25
>>zionic+3b
Liberalism is the free market of ideas. It is pretty distant from leftism and should not be conflated.
◧◩◪
10. KerrAv+gk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 17:25:19
>>fallin+Ib
Pretty sure right-leaning content per se is still available on reddit and what's actually banned is outright Nazism, racism, violence, etc. Lefty content featuring coordinated politcal violence would also get banned, if it existed.
replies(2): >>mschus+JA >>DoItTo+Za2
◧◩
11. dundar+by[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 18:33:10
>>ciphol+N6
And the people who run the "non free speech" platforms (i.e., all the popular ones) are operationally "opposed" to free speech primarily in the sense that they want a pleasant platform for advertisers, and hence must stifle the stuff that's unpleasant to advertisers. There is some personal ideology at the top of these organizations, but it is extruded through a profit seeking filter and often barely survives operationally intact.

I don't say this to excuse their actions or say that this filter is good, but that seems to be the fundamental mechanism.

◧◩
12. optima+bA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 18:41:54
>>zionic+3b
They said those platforms are just as censored, except in favor of the other side.
◧◩◪◨
13. mschus+JA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 18:44:22
>>KerrAv+gk
> Lefty content featuring coordinated politcal violence would also get banned, if it existed.

And that last part is the entire point: There simply is no mainstream-relevant occurency of left-wing terrorism and murders any more in the Western world. The most relevant militant group was the German RAF, which has all but dissolved in the early 90s (there are three still on the run and occasionally robbing a bank but that's it). In contrast, murders and other organized violence and terrorism based on right-wing ideology is shockingly commonplace.

With online-based hate speech, it is just the same matter, only a different medium - and there is so much more content that draws in right-wing hate speech (such as anti-immigration stuff, antisemitism, Islamophobia and LGBT hate) than anything that inspires left-wing hate speech. The only thing that comes close to hate speech from the left wing are the "eat the rich" slogan and Stalin/Gulag memes, and that's it.

As a result, it is obvious from the numbers that the right wing will always complain about "we are getting censored and the lefties are not!!!"... well, duh, how about if the complainers would stop doing the things they get moderated for?!

replies(1): >>fallin+Hf1
◧◩
14. dredmo+gK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 19:30:44
>>ciphol+N6
Not strictly true.

Those whose focus is overtly offensive and oppressive speech, however ...

◧◩◪
15. dredmo+cL[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 19:34:28
>>fallin+Ib
Usenet, mailing lists, numerous BBSes, and any number of earlier Web forums look on your assertion with bemusement.

Reddit claimed free speech as a value in its early years. That sentiment has evolved, for all the usual reasons.[1]

It is possible to host a wide range of significant views without becoming overtly hostile to the majority of the population, and the viewpoints held by those.

Reddit was in no way "the original free speech platform".

________________________________

Notes:

1. TL;DR: it's untenable and spirals into a cesspit, QED.

replies(1): >>fallin+ag1
◧◩◪◨⬒
16. fallin+Hf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 22:21:02
>>mschus+JA
If you don't count the CHAZ, or the BLM riots, or the guy who shot the Republican congressman at the baseball game, or the guy who shot 12 cops in Dallas...
◧◩◪◨
17. fallin+ag1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-17 22:23:45
>>dredmo+cL
I should say the last universal free speech platform. It's a cesspit anyway. Not sure how you can blame that one on freedom of speech.
replies(1): >>dredmo+5X1
◧◩◪◨⬒
18. dredmo+5X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 04:32:24
>>fallin+ag1
I'd disagree with the first sentence as well.

My main complaint with Reddit is that the direction it's been taking the site over the past five years or so, and more pointedly the improvements it's not made, are far divorced from where I'd like to see it go.

Reddit wastes my time and does not reward time spent on site with valuable insights. Not strictly for cultivating misinformation and disinformation, though that's a fair-sized piece of my concern. I'm more concerned that it simply kills good conversation or prevents it from arising in the first place.

19. DoItTo+892[view] [source] 2022-02-18 07:03:38
>>robert+(OP)
Voat was subject to a campaign planned by multiple neo-nazi communities, particularly 8chan's /pol/, to make the site unusable for non-nazis. It involved mass claiming any boards that could possibly be popular and giving them an explicitly white nationalist spin.

I can't really blame them for not stepping up to the plate and saying 'fuck off', since the genesis of the site had to do with Reddit overmoderation, and even appearing to step into the same shoes could have had killed the site.

◧◩◪◨
20. DoItTo+Za2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 07:26:37
>>KerrAv+gk
Many lefty subs were banned or permanently quarantined for support of the USSR, and one was even banned for saying slaves killing their owners was justified in the context of pre-abolition America. I don't think it's about "coordinated political violence", it's about clearing out the site so that it's a safer place for advertisers and investors.
[go to top]