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[parent] [thread] 29 comments
1. Animat+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-01-29 22:07:06
This is an observation that goes back to at least Cicero.[1]

Cicero on the primary goal of oratory:

"As, therefore, the two principal qualities required in an Orator, are to be neat and clear in stating the nature of his subject, and warm and forcible in moving the passions; and as he who fires and inflames his audience, will always effect more than he who can barely inform and amuse them..."

Cicero describes the problem the OP reports:

"But let us return to Calvus whom we have just mentioned,—an Orator who had received more literary improvements than Curio, and had a more accurate and delicate manner of speaking, which he conducted with great taste and elegance; but, (by being too minute and nice a critic upon himself,) while he was labouring to correct and refine his language, he suffered all the force and spirit of it to evaporate. In short, it was so exquisitely polished, as to charm the eye of every skilful observer; but it was little noticed by the common people in a crowded Forum, which is the proper theatre of Eloquence."

Nuanced communication not working at scale, 2100 years ago.

[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/9776/pg9776-images.html

replies(7): >>quietb+Z6 >>viksit+Hb >>Vetch+Wg >>scrubs+5E >>throwa+2F >>marcel+6L >>orbifo+gi1
2. quietb+Z6[view] [source] 2022-01-29 22:57:59
>>Animat+(OP)
That's an interesting quotation, but it doesn't sound like the problem with Curio's was too much nuance. If anything, very plain (albeit clear) speech has a lack of nuance.
replies(4): >>Tronno+T7 >>def_tr+y9 >>modern+9j >>useful+nA
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3. Tronno+T7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-29 23:06:10
>>quietb+Z6
I think GP is trying to make the opposite point, that Calvus (not Curio) introduced too much nuance in his speech, making himself a less effective orator.
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4. def_tr+y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-29 23:19:03
>>quietb+Z6
I don't think I've seen an author's point demonstrated so neatly in the comments ever before.
5. viksit+Hb[view] [source] 2022-01-29 23:36:12
>>Animat+(OP)
This comment is truly on point and very meta — it takes a nuanced twitter thread and distills it down via the force of an authoritative source in a way that people immediately get the point.
replies(2): >>grafpo+Zo >>astrob+X31
6. Vetch+Wg[view] [source] 2022-01-30 00:15:18
>>Animat+(OP)
I bet this objectively can't be helped.

Nuance requires representing uncertainty and is higher complexity from accounting for multiple special cases. Placing more cognitive load and attentional demands on receiver.

Human communication is lossy and decoding can be non-trivial inference. Given that everyone comes with differing priors, the more finer grained and complex details are required in reconstructing message intent, the more likely it is to be misconstruected. Failing to attend to a single core detail can rend meaning.

At scale the chance for errors to propagate without correction increases.

Getting rid of fine grained details and communicating a lower entropy message inline with a crowd's biases also ensures it's more likely to survive in a form close to original intent. A good manipulative orator focuses less on truth or content and more on minimizing mismatch between receiver mental states and orator's directional preferences.

replies(6): >>jychan+Bx >>mettam+aA >>bodhib+KA >>narag+0B >>mr_toa+pC >>pg_123+Ca9
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7. modern+9j[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 00:32:32
>>quietb+Z6
You've found yourself in the "95%"
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8. grafpo+Zo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:12:50
>>viksit+Hb
> authoritative source

2000+ year old source, calling that _authoritative_ is a wild stretch

replies(2): >>dpeck+Gq >>themat+7v
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9. dpeck+Gq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:23:36
>>grafpo+Zo
2000 years old and still speaking truth to our own lived experience makes it all the more authoritative.
replies(1): >>adolph+Is
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10. adolph+Is[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:36:07
>>dpeck+Gq
Survivor bias | Authoritative
replies(1): >>IggleS+Nv
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11. themat+7v[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:52:40
>>grafpo+Zo
Cicero lived 2000 years ago and is still widely considered one of the greatest orators and writers of all time. For the art of rhetoric, it really doesn't get much more authoritative than that.

I know the HN crowd is dismissive of old stuff, because fields like math and science advance fast enough that nobody calls (say) Pythagoras or Archimedes "authoritative", but the art of convincing other humans remains essentially the same.

replies(1): >>hitekk+0w
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12. IggleS+Nv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:57:03
>>adolph+Is
Is that “survivor bias UNION Authoritative” or “Survivor bias PIPE Authoritative”? Even on HN, hard to know which way this comment intends to lean.
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13. hitekk+0w[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 01:58:45
>>themat+7v
I don't think it's HN; I think it's a few folks who never learned the value of history. Kind of like that kid in middle school who would say "all people in world history are dead, what do they matter?", "they didn't have iphones, so how smart could they be?", or "this wikipedia about logical fallacies disproves Plato".
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14. jychan+Bx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:12:01
>>Vetch+Wg
You've put into text format, something which most extroverts already intuitively understand.

Communicating with more than one person at a time requires dumbed down slogans and short bits of summarized information. Nuanced long form communication is a luxury that can rarely be afforded.

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15. mettam+aA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:34:29
>>Vetch+Wg
You made quite a nuanced and elaborate point.

I guess it scales on text with a specific crowd (HN).

replies(1): >>neilpa+e81
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16. useful+nA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:36:49
>>quietb+Z6
That whole paragraph is almost exclusively about Calvus; Curio is only mentioned once, in passing.
replies(1): >>CRConr+pd2
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17. bodhib+KA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:41:02
>>Vetch+Wg
I'm genuinely appreciating the nuance and complexity in your reply. Thank you!
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18. narag+0B[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:42:59
>>Vetch+Wg
I bet this objectively can't be helped.

Actually it can be helped when everybody agrees that some information must be known by everybody. Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools...

So the problem uses to be that there are opposing sides trying to beat each other. OK, that's obvious, isn't it? But come to think of it, is society so divided that most people's interests conflicts with somebody else's?

I understand that there are diverse interests dividing countries or continents, but often differences inside the same country seem to be artificially amplified and fuelled.

replies(2): >>gowld+oB >>Sebb76+1D
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19. gowld+oB[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:46:53
>>narag+0B
"Make your idea a required chapter of study for a week in every school" isn't relly actionable advice...
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20. mr_toa+pC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 02:56:45
>>Vetch+Wg
> Getting rid of fine grained details and communicating a lower entropy message inline with a crowd's biases also ensures it's more likely to survive in a form close to original intent.

This sounds like Dawkins conception of a meme: an idea small enough to replicate as a whole without error.

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21. Sebb76+1D[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 03:03:37
>>narag+0B
> Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools...

Both of those are basically so delayed and holey that you can forget using it for anything but the most basic points. Just look at how bad some people are at math and that's something both essential and taught extensively for basically the whole time one is in the education system.

replies(1): >>Dangit+zz1
22. scrubs+5E[view] [source] 2022-01-30 03:13:30
>>Animat+(OP)
HN has been on fire this week -- in the good way! And this whole post and quote throws another log on it.
23. throwa+2F[view] [source] 2022-01-30 03:21:44
>>Animat+(OP)
There is something wonderfully persuasive when someone can connect a modern topic to one that has already been addressed by the ancients.

It feels as if the topic, once thought unwieldy and complicated, becomes tractable and clear.

Perhaps the way to handle complicated nuances situations in life is to connect them to a classic problem.

I feel this strategy also works in mathematical fields.

24. marcel+6L[view] [source] 2022-01-30 04:15:50
>>Animat+(OP)
The reference book here is a collection of dialogs made by Cicero where he argues that there are two types of oratory: the short, "elegant", straight to the point one and the profuse, "appealing", heart touching one. Cicero himself says (in that book) he is in favor the latter. The book is not about nuance, but rather discourse style. In his (Cicero's) view, the better oratory style is the one that touches the audience as opposed to carefully chosen words. Based on the book, IMO, Cicero is more focused on arguing in favor of passionate speeches than nuance per se.

PS. I believe the quotes used are a bit misleading because they are used as counterexamples in the original text.

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25. astrob+X31[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 08:47:29
>>viksit+Hb
Yes, and it is amusing to see the word "forum" in the quote.
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26. neilpa+e81[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 09:40:04
>>mettam+aA
It works here because their point about having differing priors. On HN, people largely have similar priors (at least on some axes).
27. orbifo+gi1[view] [source] 2022-01-30 11:23:31
>>Animat+(OP)
One of my favourite memories from school was translating parts of Cicero's words from latin. He is considered "easy" to read and translate precisely because he took great care of not using difficult or ambiguous language in his writing as well.
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28. Dangit+zz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 13:41:43
>>Sebb76+1D
This is a good point. A large portion of people can't quite figure out how something so fundamental as fractions work.
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29. CRConr+pd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-01-30 18:16:55
>>useful+nA
So he's just a curio?

(Hm, is that the etymology?)

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30. pg_123+Ca9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-01 17:49:16
>>Vetch+Wg
Much of Shakespeare's genius was to pitch his work simultaneously for multiple levels of sophistication ... social commentary, poetry and fart humour, all at the same time.
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