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[parent] [thread] 23 comments
1. microt+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-10-16 14:28:49
There is definitely a lot of art that is "adult" for one reason or other. If I walked into my kids' daycare to see a reproduction of [0] on the wall, I'd definitely raise an eyebrow, and even [1] is probably enough to scare smaller children. We've kind of grown numbed to the iconography, but even as an older teenager I was fairly shocked by a closer look at [2].

The distinction between "art" and "pornography" is also somewhat artificial. It's hard to argue that [3] was not meant to be prurient when the model (underage, by today's standards) shortly thereafter became a mistress of the King of France, based on him having seen the painting. And some stuff that was painted might get you banned from OnlyFans even today, e.g. [4].

But the problem, it seems to me, is that the internet has turned into a place where (1) everything has to be "safe for children" and (2) said safety standards are defined (through US influence, I strongly suspect) to be highly permissive of violence, but super strict on nudity.

[0] https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/the-war/CwHM2HdTO3l2...

[1] https://www.wikiart.org/en/max-ernst/the-angel-of-the-home-o...

[2] https://www.wikiart.org/en/matthias-grunewald/the-crucifixio...

[3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:François_Boucher_-_B...

[4] https://www.wikiart.org/en/jean-honore-fragonard/girl-with-a...

replies(7): >>x14km2+W >>User23+M1 >>stavro+S4 >>watwut+Sd >>KingMa+ix >>jrockw+oP >>little+AQ
2. x14km2+W[view] [source] 2021-10-16 14:38:21
>>microt+(OP)
What the...?: [1] Artworks of Max Ernst are not aviable in your country on copyright grounds. https://i.imgur.com/LHeQimw.png
replies(1): >>codetr+o2
3. User23+M1[view] [source] 2021-10-16 14:48:30
>>microt+(OP)
And then there's Goya[1]. Not necessarily pre-school appropriate either.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Devouring_His_Son

replies(2): >>Quercu+1g >>monoca+Py
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4. codetr+o2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 14:54:17
>>x14km2+W
Classic Germany
replies(2): >>Barrin+77 >>b3orn+EL
5. stavro+S4[view] [source] 2021-10-16 15:14:03
>>microt+(OP)
Why would 4 get you banned? There doesn't appear to be anything remotely sexual there, at least to me, just implied nudity.
replies(3): >>lm2846+D8 >>microt+dh >>hypert+X11
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6. Barrin+77[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 15:34:26
>>codetr+o2
yep every time I head to gutenberg.org I'm reminded that it doesn't get any more ironic. The guy was German for gods sake, we invented the printing press and here I am 600 years later getting owned by copyright
replies(2): >>thauma+XK >>manque+t01
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7. lm2846+D8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 15:46:47
>>stavro+S4
Because automatic content detection suck really bad, and a kid in that position might be detected as child porn by a bot

I've had multiple pics flagged by discord as "graphic" even though none were graphic, the last one was a close up picture of a coin held between my fingers

replies(2): >>stavro+N8 >>bongom+bC
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8. stavro+N8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 15:47:56
>>lm2846+D8
Ah okay, that makes sense. I thought it was somehow offensive to a human and was wondering why.
9. watwut+Sd[view] [source] 2021-10-16 16:28:36
>>microt+(OP)
> internet has turned into a place where (1) everything has to be "safe for children

It is not just safe for children. Safe for work too. Safe for people who don't like porn in their feeds too. I think that these filters don't particularly care about high art, because that is insignificant percentage of overall nudity people post. Most of it is boobs and genitals.

The art you posted is all tame. But not all art is tame and like between porn, erotic and art is often blurry.

replies(1): >>ghaff+Sy
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10. Quercu+1g[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 16:41:07
>>User23+M1
Kids, here's an example of what happens if you don't listen!
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11. microt+dh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 16:49:41
>>stavro+S4
Nudity in proximity to an animal… not that I’ve tested this, but I wouldn’t stake an account on it.
replies(1): >>stavro+Fh
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12. stavro+Fh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 16:52:48
>>microt+dh
Nudity in proximity to anything is potentially bad if your conception of nudity is "uh oh, sex imminent, which is bad".

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but naked kids aren't uncommon here. It's seen as a natural thing.

13. KingMa+ix[view] [source] 2021-10-16 18:30:10
>>microt+(OP)
TBH I think 0-2 would pass as completely fine depending on the context. #1 could probably be put anywhere and would only scare the most easily scared children. I could definitely expect to see stuff like #0 and #2 at maybe not the corner street daycare but maybe a prestigious private catholic school's daycare would have that nearby.

#3, #4 would just seem out of place because of their nudity. Most sane people would realize it is art but it would still seem weird.

Part of the US's double standard involves being exposed to stuff like the crucifixion and the concept of torture at a very young age. The concept that nudity can be appreciated or even expressed outside of a sexual context is not really a thing in the US. The issue is that the only use cases for nudity in movies & TV is going to sex related 99% of the time because if you are going to show nudity you might as well use it to suggest or depict sex.

replies(1): >>microt+BC
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14. monoca+Py[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 18:40:56
>>User23+M1
To be fair Goya didn't publicly display that either. The Black Paintings were all painted directly on the walls on the inside of his house.
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15. ghaff+Sy[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 18:41:33
>>watwut+Sd
NSFW is probably quite a lower threshold than not for children generally. I have a couple pieces of art in my house that I definitely would not put up in a work office if I had one, a screen saver on a work laptop etc. I'm not sure it's even so much the case that someone would take offence but that people would be concerned that someone might and/or think (probably correctly) that I was trying to test the limits of what was appropriate for a work setting.

That said, someone will get upset at just about anything.

replies(1): >>watwut+eJ1
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16. bongom+bC[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 19:05:47
>>lm2846+D8
Hands and fingers always trip up NSFW detection models. We use them for automoderation and a lot of people demoing nail art, close up shots of someone painting etc get classified as NSFW. My guess is that fingers kind of look similar to legs to a CNN model and it appears like naked legs.
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17. microt+BC[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 19:09:19
>>KingMa+ix
I agree that #1 would be considered harmless by most people, and except for the fact that it's still copyrighted would not be subject to a takedown anywhere. As you say, #2 would probably be widely accepted due to the religious context, even though objectively it is quite gory.

I disagree with your assessment of #0. It is extremely gory, repurposes religious imagery in a secular context, and was considered such a menace to society that it could not be shown in museums and had to be hidden for 15 years.

And I think #3 and especially #4 were not meant to depict nudity devoid of a sexual context. With Fragonard, there is often an acknowledged voyeuristic element, even in paintings where there is no nudity, such as https://www.wikiart.org/en/jean-honore-fragonard/the-swing-1... (cf also the original French title).

But it's kind of twisted that we consider it less weird to look at a person nailed to a cross than one engaged in a prelude to a reproductive act.

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18. thauma+XK[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 20:10:04
>>Barrin+77
> The guy was German for gods sake, we invented the printing press

The printing press was hundreds of years old by the time of Gutenberg.

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19. b3orn+EL[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 20:15:22
>>codetr+o2
The link works fine for me.
20. jrockw+oP[view] [source] 2021-10-16 20:41:41
>>microt+(OP)
> If I walked into my kids' daycare to see a reproduction of [0] on the wall, I'd definitely raise an eyebrow, and even [1] is probably enough to scare smaller children.

I'm not sure this is meaningful. You would also find any fine art unusual in the context of a daycare, regardless of whether or not it's offensive. Your mind is trained to expect bright colors, letters, shapes, etc. in that context.

A better question is, would you expect an art museum to have these paintings in a separate area that requires proof of age to see? And I think the answer to that is absolutely not. That would be weird.

21. little+AQ[view] [source] 2021-10-16 20:49:53
>>microt+(OP)
> [0] https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/the-war/CwHM2HdTO3l2...

That's far from what your kid can see just watching a few minutes of news. (And I'm not even talking about this email I received from the kindergarten explaining to all parents that kids of this age aren't supposed to watch Squid Game at home!)

> [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:François_Boucher_-_B...

> [4] https://www.wikiart.org/en/jean-honore-fragonard/girl-with-a...

What's wrong with those two? These are innocent painting of naked people (also children have no sense of pudency before way after kindergarten so they just can't see the problem with this)

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22. manque+t01[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 22:04:03
>>Barrin+77
Gutenberg making the movable type popular[1] is one of primary reasons Statute of Anne(1710) and copyright was created. It shouldn't be surprising that you are seeing the effects of that.

With movable type printing, the market for books could be widened, suddenly writing and printing presses could go professional, before that it was largely academic. Printers and distributors and writers both became professional and needed their rights balanced and became economically influential enough to get legislature to enact laws to protect both groups.

[1] He was the first in Europe, he didn't invent it first in the world.

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23. hypert+X11[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-16 22:19:44
>>stavro+S4
The girl is holding the dog in a position where the wagging of its tail directly stimulates her genital area.
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24. watwut+eJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-10-17 08:00:17
>>ghaff+Sy
Yes. But I think that when people chalk it all to kids, they are massively oversimplifying. Because on forum like this it is easier to attack "safety for childer" arguing.

But in reality, people don't want to see erotica and such in their own feeds. The threshold of where it becomes unwanted is different for everyone. But most people want some level of filtering to be done for them.

Plus people want to be able to scroll Facebook or Twitter in work for few minutes without risking something inappropriate shows up.

And lines between art that feels good, erotics or porn, and basically bad art/photo that is super cringy just to look at and disgusting are blurry. And they are also subjective.

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