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[parent] [thread] 40 comments
1. arrose+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:14:04
It's not a conflict of interest because Dr. Fauci wasn't gaining anything. The agency he is head of is specifically interested in infectious disease and has a large budget for grants. $120K per year pays for a couple plate of genetic samples and tech time to run them. Maybe in China you can run a few more for that cost, I don't know.

As head of that agency, it's also his job to share his professional opinion with the public. For this, his reward is a public servant's salary. Seriously, what's he getting here for his supposed "deception"?

replies(8): >>disgru+G1 >>warlog+O3 >>boston+j4 >>jtbayl+E5 >>xenoph+Da >>rayine+Td >>baryph+bm >>myfavo+dQ
2. disgru+G1[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:29:31
>>arrose+(OP)
> It's not a conflict of interest because Dr. Fauci wasn't gaining anything. The agency he is head of is specifically interested in infectious disease and has a large budget for grants. $120K per year pays for a couple plate of genetic samples and tech time to run them. Maybe in China you can run a few more for that cost, I don't know.

So it is not a conflict of interest because of the sum of money? Someone doesn't need to gain anything to be in conflict, by definition: "a situation in which the concerns or aims of two different parties are incompatible."

Do you at least think he had a duty to disclose his involvement/investment in gain of function research? Specifically with the Wuhan lab at the center of this?

> As head of that agency, it's also his job to share his professional opinion with the public. For this, his reward is a public servant's salary. Seriously, what's he getting here for his supposed "deception"?

Did you know he's the most highly paid government official? His measly public servant salary only paid him $417K. [0]

[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/01/25/dr-...

replies(4): >>arrose+m2 >>cbradf+h3 >>SamBam+a6 >>tshadd+we
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3. arrose+m2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:36:11
>>disgru+G1
It's still not clear to me what the conflict of interest is. The amount of money is kind of important, because it gives you an idea of the level of involvement. As I said, $600K over 5 years is very little money, it basically makes sure you get the results of whatever research is already being done.

> His measly public servant salary only paid him $417K.

The top scientist in the country, with several Ph.Ds, 50 years of experience in a both public leadership and an incredibly complicated branch of biology, is making roughly what a staff engineer at a FAANG company makes...and you are complaining? That's the bargain of the century. He's a sick fuck for actually sticking it out - he could have bailed and consulted on "return to the office" for all the big tech and entertainment companies. He is 80 years old, working insane hours, and probably would have made more money in 6 months than he has in his whole public career from a really nice beach. You will never convince me that THIS is the smoking gun that proves Dr. Fauci corrupt, finally, after 50 years in public service. It's too stupid.

replies(1): >>disgru+D4
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4. cbradf+h3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:44:31
>>disgru+G1
Agree. Do not underplay the value of status and power for people like Faucci. He needed to downplay to keep his grip on both
replies(1): >>_y5hn+Ho
5. warlog+O3[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:48:34
>>arrose+(OP)
But it could be perceived as a conflict of interest, and that of itself is the reason to at least declare it (for transparency). This is how it works in ethics.
replies(2): >>wearyw+o4 >>tshadd+oe
6. boston+j4[view] [source] 2021-06-04 01:54:01
>>arrose+(OP)
Just playing devil's advocate, not convinced fauci had any malicious intentions, but he has one of the most highly public jobs in America, he gets to keep his job/power and maintain a future in politics. But he definitely does not seem like some power hungry egomaniacal player to me. His beliefs before and after and actions after the outbreak seemed to be consistent with someone that was trying to do the right thing for our country.
replies(1): >>colech+Ha
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7. wearyw+o4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:54:41
>>warlog+O3
Indeed, avoiding the perception of impropriety is second only to avoiding impropriety itself. When people perceive impropriety, even when there is none, trust in the system is undermined.
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8. disgru+D4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 01:57:32
>>arrose+m2
> It's still not clear to me what the conflict of interest is. The amount of money is kind of important, because it gives you an idea of the level of involvement. As I said, $600K over 5 years is very little money, it basically makes sure you get the results of whatever research is already being done.

Maybe he's covering his own ass? Maybe he's trying to protect gain of function research? He was, after all, the most vocal proponent that the risks with gain of function research were worth it. [0]

> The top scientist in the country, with several Ph.Ds, 50 years of experience in a both public leadership and an incredibly complicated branch of biology, is making roughly what a staff engineer at a FAANG company makes...and you are complaining? That's the bargain of the century. He's a sick fuck for actually sticking it out - he could have bailed and consulted on "return to the office" for all the big tech and entertainment companies. He is 80 years old, working insane hours, and probably would have made more money in 6 months than he has in his whole public career from a really nice beach. You will never convince me that THIS is the smoking gun that proves Dr. Fauci corrupt, finally, after 50 years in public service. It's too stupid.

Oh, ok. So before his only reward was his "public servant salary", but now that you know he's the most highly paid government official (including the President) his salary is now being compared to FAANGs and he's underpaid. What a sacrifice.

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

Edit: Fix typo.

replies(2): >>arrose+Q6 >>mullin+2i
9. jtbayl+E5[view] [source] 2021-06-04 02:06:13
>>arrose+(OP)
It’s an obvious conflict of interest. To be making public judgments about whether a lab could be responsible when you are partly responsible for what that lab has done is precisely the definition of conflict of interest.

It’s called self-policing elsewhere, and anybody would see the conflict of interest immediately at FAANG, for example. Was FB causing teen depression? Researcher says no. (Then it turns out the researcher had done consulting work for FB or had been in contact with FB, advocating that they use the timeline feed to run experiments on unsuspecting teens…

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10. SamBam+a6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:10:32
>>disgru+G1
> His measly public servant salary only paid him $417K

Oh please. The median CEO pay at a pharmaceutical company is nearly $5 million. It take all the way up to nearly $50 million per year, which someone with the incredible experience (not to mention government contacts) of Dr Fauci would be on the upper end of, and that's not too mention the tens of millions in signing bonus and retirement packages. [1]

1. https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/biotech-pharma-ceo-employ...

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11. arrose+Q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:16:19
>>disgru+D4
> game of function research

I assumed this was a typo the first time, but since you repeated it - it's gain* of function. As in a virus gaining a new function.

Did you even read that paper? I doesn't say what you are claiming at all. It says they're going to hold a conference to determine if it's worth the risks, and says they should continue the moratorium while they do more research. Ah jeez.

> Oh, ok. So before his only reward was his "public servant salary", but now that you know he's the most highly paid government official (including the President) his salary is now being compared to FAANGs and he's underpaid. What a sacrifice.

Compared to what he could be making right now? Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate his sacrifice — he's criminally underpaid for how valuable his skills and experience are to the country.

12. xenoph+Da[view] [source] 2021-06-04 02:53:37
>>arrose+(OP)
For a measly $120k grant, I doubt Fauci was involved in the award whatsoever.
replies(2): >>ravel-+lt >>WillPo+Sv
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13. colech+Ha[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 02:54:05
>>boston+j4
I don't know about malice, but covering up or downplaying the possibility of a global pandemic being caused by activities he was involved in or encouraged... shit can be corrupt even if a person is not trying to take advantage of a situation.

Placing blame isn't really all that important. Making sure none of this happens again for the same reasons is.

If I was placing a bet, I'd say Wuhan researchers regularly got a handle on patents zero for cross species infection. In the course of the research a virus infected workers because of lax, sloppy, or otherwise inadequate controls; then despite the threat in order to save face government did everything they could to hide the mistake until it was far too late for anything to really be done about it.

replies(1): >>ethanb+BD
14. rayine+Td[view] [source] 2021-06-04 03:27:27
>>arrose+(OP)
Avoiding reputation and harm is certainly a major incentive, especially for a scientist, leading to a conflict of interest.
replies(1): >>_y5hn+no
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15. tshadd+oe[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 03:31:43
>>warlog+O3
Anything could be perceived as a conflict of interest. This entire subthread is an argument about whether it’s reasonable to consider this case a conflict of interest.
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16. tshadd+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 03:32:48
>>disgru+G1
The magnitude of a conflict of interest obviously matters.
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17. mullin+2i[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 04:16:22
>>disgru+D4
> Oh, ok. So before his only reward was his "public servant salary", but now that you know he's the most highly paid government official (including the President)

He is far from the top paid government official. That honor, by a long shot, in nearly every state in the country, goes to college athletic coaches[1].

https://fanbuzz.com/national/highest-paid-state-employees/

18. baryph+bm[view] [source] 2021-06-04 04:56:10
>>arrose+(OP)
A conflict of interest does not depend on whether a person actually gains (or prevents himself from losing) anything, but whether he has some personal interest (such as fame, money, even gifts for a family member, etc.) that coexists with some duty-bound interest to some other party/society (e.g. fiduciary duty, professional ethical duties, etc.), and the person is entrusted with making a decision that implicated either interest depending on the outcome. Conflicts of interest are usually resolved either by disclosure or isolation from the adverse interest.

In this case, Fauci has sort of a small, debatable conflict. His personal stake is not money per se, but his reputation and clear preference for gain-of-function research. If it came out that gain-of-function research caused the pandemic, and Fauci was one of the leading cheerleaders for that since the early aughts AND Fauci may have provided some of the funding for this particular research, then Fauci would stand to lose quite a bit of reputation and standing. That's a real adverse incentive to determine that lab leak of a gain-of-function virus is not possible.

If his job is to share his opinion to the public, then he has a conflict of interest with respect to that decision, since the public doesn't know if Fauci-the-expert is talking or Fauci-the-reputation-seeking-bureaucrat. If he had merely disclosed any of his involvement with restarting funding of gain-of-function research in 2017 or his past advocacy for gain-of-function research, that would significantly resolve the conflict.

In my opinion, Fauci is simply an opportunistic bureaucrat and a liar (I repeat myself), and the conflict of interest claim against him is weak. Peter Daszam has much, much more problematic conflicts of interest. This is a guy who (1) discredited fellow scientists in the Lancet for considering an alternative hypothesis and (2) led a sham WHO investigation into the WIV lab, all while funneling NIH grant money to WIV, not complying with disclosure and review requirements and standing to lose his career if gain-of-function were to be seriously discredited. It would be hard for him to be more conflicted.

Also, for what it's worth, Fauci is the highest paid federal employee. He makes more than the president. Most "public servants" make $150k/year or less. Not to mention, Fauci had also made a book deal as a result of his celebrity.

replies(1): >>carsch+Uu
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19. _y5hn+no[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 05:27:10
>>rayine+Td
Setup for failure it is, then.
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20. _y5hn+Ho[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 05:31:00
>>cbradf+h3
Who are "people like Faucci", successful people regarded as experts?

We do have representatives that are meant to have final say, but they went AWOL mentally.

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21. ravel-+lt[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 06:35:50
>>xenoph+Da
He has now been called in to testify in front of congress on it ... twice. However insignificant the dollar amount, knowing the details of it is his job.
replies(1): >>bigfud+nx
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22. carsch+Uu[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 06:53:26
>>baryph+bm
By these standards, everyone (in such a position) is always in some "conflict of interest". Had Fauci blamed that lab, he certainly would have been, as his organization also funds its competitors, and of course because he works for the US administration.

The ideology behind throwing around this kind of allegations is: all facts are fabricated by somebody, nobody can be trusted (they all have a conflict of interest), so we can as well make up our own "alternative facts" that fit our ideology best. In the end, it's just "us against them", so arguments and facts don't matter any more.

As a side-note: I doubt that Fauci just spontaneously pushes out his personal opinion about this kind of affairs, so I suppose his organization largely agrees with him. All corrupt and in a "conflict of interest"? And I think his position should definitely be paid better than the president. Why not?

None of this says anything about Fauci as a person. He might be opportunistic, a bureaucrat, and whatnot, but that is hardly relevant in this context (other than discrediting everything he says).

replies(2): >>harryf+kB >>baryph+XW
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23. WillPo+Sv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 07:04:14
>>xenoph+Da
EcoHealth secured a NIAID grant of roughly $3.7 million, which it allocated in part to various entities engaged in collecting bat samples, building models, and performing gain-of-function experiments to see which animal viruses were able to jump to humans.

It was a $3.7million dollar grant to EcoHealth Alliance, which I wouldn't doubt he was involved with. $600,000 was sent from EcoHealth to Wuhan Institute of Virology.

replies(2): >>harryf+eB >>Fomite+ZB
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24. bigfud+nx[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 07:22:01
>>ravel-+lt
On its face, That’s an absurd statement. NIH offers Very small grants for fellowships ... should he know about those too?
replies(2): >>tremon+BE >>voidfu+kG
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25. harryf+eB[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 08:16:40
>>WillPo+Sv
...except Peter Daszak, the president of EcoHealth, took it upon himself to thank Fauci for pushing the "natural causes" narrative - https://foxbaltimore.com/news/nation-world/new-emails-reveal...

More explanation of that here... https://youtu.be/jMr-fGmRGco?t=246

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26. harryf+kB[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 08:19:26
>>carsch+Uu
> By these standards, everyone (in such a position) is always in some "conflict of interest".

Yes. But not everyone becomes the leading figure in a global pandemic which has killed 3.7 million people and thrown the world into complete disarray. At the point where you realise you're in that position, the correct, ethical thing to do is put all your cards on the table.

replies(1): >>Pyramu+RS
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27. Fomite+ZB[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 08:27:31
>>WillPo+Sv
That's not all that big of a grant. It's roughly twice the standard NIH R01. I can't imagine the head of NIAID being directly involved in that.
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28. ethanb+BD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 08:52:45
>>colech+Ha
So you’re criticizing a scientist for expressing skepticism toward a scenario that had (especially at the time) very limited evidence, and then just placing your own bet on a far more extreme, also non-substantiated version?
replies(1): >>eutrop+TT
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29. tremon+BE[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 09:05:56
>>bigfud+nx
If congress starts calling him to the floor about those fellowships, he'd better make sure to know about those too, yes.
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30. voidfu+kG[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 09:30:35
>>bigfud+nx
Ultimately yes - but not at grant time, just like how a CEO is responsible for everything in a company either directly or indirectly. Shit flows up, he may not be personally involved in the decision but he absolutely has to be briefed on it (or know who to ask) if things go sideways so he can answer to Congress/President (just like a CEO to the board).
31. myfavo+dQ[view] [source] 2021-06-04 11:44:40
>>arrose+(OP)
Seriously, what's he getting here for his supposed "deception"?

Fauci has been covering this up since early on. Have you not followed the story of the released emails from the FOIA request? He knew this research was being conducted. He gave cover to those who attacked people like Sen Tom Cotton, who was trying to get this looked into from the beginning.

For this, his reward is a public servant's salary

Fauci is the highest paid employee in the Federal government.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/01/25/dr-...

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32. Pyramu+RS[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:07:21
>>harryf+kB
How is he "the leading figure"? Fauci is hardly relevant outside the US. As you mentioned we are discussing a global phenomenon and it's useful to distinguish between global and US specific matters.
replies(2): >>Red_Le+2Z >>baryph+E31
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33. eutrop+TT[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:18:01
>>ethanb+BD
The article states that at the time people were denying the possibility of a lab leak, there was a lack of credible evidence for zoonosis. If I’m evaluating hypotheses, it’s generally better that I wait for hard evidence before ruling one out. e.g. some kind of patient zero animal population.

The lancet letter was at best extraordinarily premature.

replies(1): >>ethanb+eZ
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34. baryph+XW[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 12:46:17
>>carsch+Uu
> The ideology behind throwing around this kind of allegations is: all facts are fabricated by somebody, nobody can be trusted (they all have a conflict of interest), so we can as well make up our own "alternative facts" that fit our ideology best. In the end, it's just "us against them", so arguments and facts don't matter any more.

That isn't true at all. Mere disclosure (e.g. "Full disclosure: I ran gain of function research for years at NIH, a couple years ago got a ban on gain-of-function research lifted at the White House and our team is currently looking into whether WIV received our funding") is sufficient to mitigate most conflicts of interests. Conflicts of interest exist all the time, but they're fairly easy to disclose (as long as someone has an ethical backbone), and in extreme cases can be mitigated with things like divestment or blind trusts (in the case of financial conflicts of interest).

Suppose your doctor was also a paid consultant for a pharmaceutical company, advising them on their new drug X. One day, your doctor starts telling you all of the benefits of drug X for certain medical issues you have, and she's very enthusiastic about it. If she simply disclosed, "full disclosure: I'm consulting with the manufacturer on the effects of this drug; that said, I really believe in it," wouldn't that entirely change the ethical dynamic vis-a-vis nondisclosure? If she disclosed, you could get a (non-conflicted) second opinion, or maybe you implicitly trust your doctor and go along with her recommendation as is. But if she didn't disclose and you later learned some other way that she has this conflict, you would lose trust.

This is what happened with Fauci and the gain-of-function crowd. They stood on the pedestal of unbiased scientific expertise, failing to disclose their conflicts, and then enabled the browbeating of anyone with alternative hypotheses (literally anyone: scientists had their professional reputations and research funding threatened; social media users had their accounts suspended or posts deleted). Without alternative hypotheses, science entirely falters. Full disclosure on the part of Fauci and especially Daszak would have gone lightyears in evaluating their credibility.

I should note that conflicts of interest do not change facts or true scientific conclusions themselves; that would be ad hominem. But conclusions are typically dependent on myriad facts, and experts have a much better idea about the universe of discourse around these facts than laypeople. A conflicted expert may thus present cherry-picked facts that support his conclusions, ignoring those that cut against them. To be fair, non-conflicted scientists may do this as well, but their credibility is only harmed insofar as they should have addressed countervailing evidence when presenting conclusions. Having a non-disclosed conflict of interest undermines a scientist's credibility and a commitment to ethical inquiry.

In my opinion, the scientific community has severely undermined their ethical and persuasive capital over the past year and even longer. If disclosure were a normal part of scientific discourse where it impacted policy, we likely would have more people who believe that vaccines work, that climate change is a threat (though likely not an apocalyptic one) and that the scientific process generally works. Instead, we have this browbeating culture where not trusting the "experts" is like some sort of scarlet letter, at least until we learn the experts were looking out for their own interests and suddenly they lose their luster. I love science, so I wish the scientific community would get its fucking act together so that large segments of the population on my "side" start to believe in the scientific method again.

Finally, lost in all of this is the fact that gain-of-function was supposed to produce vaccines more rapidly. As far as I can tell, this never happened. The vaccines we received had been researched for a decade through a different program not funded by NIH, and did not depend on gain-of-function research, but instead used unmolested SARS viruses.

replies(2): >>myfavo+J31 >>kangar+Ie3
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35. Red_Le+2Z[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:01:17
>>Pyramu+RS
In many English speaking non American countries fauci gets as much or more air time than their domestic experts
replies(1): >>detaro+aZ
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36. detaro+aZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:01:52
>>Red_Le+2Z
where?
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37. ethanb+eZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:02:15
>>eutrop+TT
Errr... yes? None of that is relevant to the claim GP goes on to make. Not only was skepticism warranted toward the lab leak hypothesis (and it continues to be), but going on to speculate that this "regularly" happened is a bit rich.
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38. baryph+E31[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:36:53
>>Pyramu+RS
If Fauci is responsible (in part, vis funding) for "assembling" the virus that caused the pandemic and is also responsible (in part) for abetting a sham WHO investigation, then certainly he would be relevant globally. The fact that the US NIH is sort of a clearinghouse for top-tier global medical research, by virtue of US hegemony, also makes him more relevant than just about any other national expert.

EDIT: Please don't downvote Pyramus. He asked a legitimate question and as far as I can tell followed HN rules. There are ~7.7B people who are not in the US.

replies(1): >>Pyramu+Bm1
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39. myfavo+J31[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 13:37:17
>>baryph+XW
In my opinion, the scientific community has severely undermined their ethical and persuasive capital over the past year and even longer

I would agree with the "even longer". I think it most noticeably started with the scientific community's intermixing of concerns regarding climate change with political forces who have had their own agendas. It's made it extremely difficult even for scientifically-minded and informed people like myself to sort through the bullshit vs the good information. People without even my background have no hope of knowing whom to trust, so they've fallen back to just trusting their political inclinations.

This past year and the politicization around pandemic issues has definitely seen an increase in the the problem, though. It's been a sad year for Science. Hard-won public trust in scientists has been thrown away. You can see it in the hesitancy to get the vaccine.

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40. Pyramu+Bm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-04 15:32:36
>>baryph+E31
You are mixing accountability and responsibility here - to give a less politically charged analogue: was Steve Ballmer responsible for the spread of the ILOVEYOU virus? No, but he held ultimate accountability for VBA being enabled by default.

I'm not disagreeing with the importance of US R&D spending, which is huge (25-30% of global spend), or that Fauci is an important public health official.

I'm simply telling you that the rest of the world is mostly indifferent to the persona Fauci, based on what I'm observing in the EU & UK and extrapolating to Asia.

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41. kangar+Ie3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-06-05 03:22:11
>>baryph+XW
Is a scientist actually a scientist if they don’t adhere to the scientific method and try their best to maintain skepticism and abstract themselves from personal and political bias. I would say they are not actually scientists, they just think and claim they are.

Humans are flawed, biased, and fundamentally limited creatures that are wrong a lot of the time. So we invented a system to evaluate hypothesis based on experiments, data, etc... A person speaking gospel or pushing a trust “The Science” while prematurely rejecting unproven hypothesis is NOT a scientist. They are no better than those who sought to banish or kill Galileo and the like.

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