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[parent] [thread] 11 comments
1. pnatha+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:17:07
I have three perspectives here I want to share.

(1) Let's address the glass windows in our own house first and tighten the US policies and culture. Secrecy is not a good idea here. Without even reflecting on Covid, it is clear the author has been dealing with this a while, and the US needs to improve. I am reminded of discussions on the old '50s/'60s nuclear culture...

(2) A year later, it may not be possible for the most honest, the most painstaking, the most independent reconstruction of the Wuhan lab events to properly track what occurred. Nor would it be per se politically doable. It might, however, be feasible for the Chinese official position to commit to an enhanced tightening of policies and culture around lab handling of specimens, in light of current events and looking forward.

(3) To a first approximation (the same one where Pi = 3), I don't care if Covid comes from a lab, a bat, a pig, or a chicken. I care that there are dead people, and that there was massive dysfunction globally & in a multipartisan way in the response, leading to more dead and disabled people...

replies(2): >>pagean+z2 >>DigiDi+f5
2. pagean+z2[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:28:06
>>pnatha+(OP)
1. The virus did not originate in our own house. Seems like a deflection to say we should focus on ourselves when we're starting at evidence that Chinese missteps could have caused a global pandemic that has killed millions and upended life for billions.

2. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We should also acknowledge that an investigation much earlier on could have happened if it were not for Chinese government obstructionism and cover-ups.

3. Why do you not care about where it came from? The allegation at hand is that China's irresponsible scientific experimentation "created" this virus (intentional oversimplification) and allowed it to leak. If the truth never comes out, and China is never held accountable, the same thing could happen again. Why is your sole interest the global response to the pandemic as opposed to the missteps that caused the pandemic in the first place?

replies(2): >>carols+a9 >>soperj+xp
3. DigiDi+f5[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:38:48
>>pnatha+(OP)
1. I think this perspective is basically "Whataboutism the US house...", Whataboutism aside, the US does examine and iteratively improve standards...but either way, we aren't talking about that house.

2. I only think a thorough investigation is not possible because the Chinese government is not going to allow that such a honest investigation to occur.

3. If a flowerpot fell from a balcony and killed your loved one, you wouldn't care if it was intentionally thrown, negligently left there, or simply a freak act of god? I think almost everyone cares about the cause of this event. If not for reasons of closure and blame, for reasons of understanding and improving out future actions.

replies(1): >>pnatha+ui6
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4. carols+a9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:54:18
>>pagean+z2
1. Even if this particular virus didn't originate in our own house, if we want to demand openness and security from other countries, we in the US should start by being open with records of accidents and enhanced measures to prevent future accidents.
replies(1): >>pagean+lf
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5. pagean+lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:19:14
>>carols+a9
Safety issues at US labs are not kept secret, as the author of the linked article has literally reported on them before, and they have also never caused a deadly global pandemic.
replies(1): >>gsk22+kn
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6. gsk22+kn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:52:50
>>pagean+lf
> Safety issues at US labs are not kept secret

No, they are "inadvertently" misclassified [1] or kept secret because of bioterrorism laws [2].

> and they have also never caused a deadly global pandemic.

Neither has a Chinese lab, to the best of our knowledge. Doesn't rule it out, but let's not jump to conclusions.

[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/23/undisclosed-c... [2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/17/report...

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7. soperj+xp[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 22:03:13
>>pagean+z2
Would you then say that irresponsibly treating the virus within the US & other western countries actually caused the pandemic to be bigger than it should have been?
replies(1): >>pagean+wv
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8. pagean+wv[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 22:33:37
>>soperj+xp
Even the Western countries that "responsibly" treated the virus are having pretty serious surges now. I guess anything short of a total and complete lockdown was irresponsible.

I'd say that the release of a highly transmissible and moderately lethal pathogen was the primary issue.

replies(1): >>soperj+lB2
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9. soperj+lB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 15:40:36
>>pagean+wv
No surges right now in NZ or Australia. Interesting that the place that it actually originated in has no current surge either.
replies(1): >>pagean+2Y2
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10. pagean+2Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 17:34:25
>>soperj+lB2
What do the three countries that you mentioned have in common? Total authoritarian lockdowns.

Authoritarian lockdowns are effective at suppressing Covid. I won’t deny that. They’re also a complete non-starter in most countries in the world.

replies(1): >>soperj+mx3
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11. soperj+mx3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 20:19:28
>>pagean+2Y2
hahahaha. New Zealand has locked down for very little time. Weeks total. They've been open for concerts and everything else in between. The lockdowns would be over if countries had actually done them properly.
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12. pnatha+ui6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-24 17:42:36
>>DigiDi+f5
> we aren't talking about that house.

My ability to pressure the Chinese government is remarkably limited compared to my ability to pressure my Senator, which is also not large - on a good day.

China isn't a transparent society - on a good day, either. That's facts.

There is also what might be called diplomatic pragmatism, a realpolitik. So, let's fix what we can fix, and make a point of not being a fricking embarrassment if we ask other governments to come clean.

edit: The problem here is several-fold. (1) There's opacity that is over Wuhan, and time does not help this; the Chinese government (at some levels) tried to cover it up. There may not be evidence any more of what happened. Ordinary time shuffling may have removed it. Period. The author is experienced at observing the open society's sloppiness with these sorts of accidents, and thinks there's at least a plausible case that it may have been released.

(2) The open society's ability to pressure China into being fully cooperative is partially conditioned on its reputation and soft power at demonstrating how good things can be. Which, it has not been.

(3) I am really really not in a meaningful position to call for changes to happen outside of a very limited location. That is because I am a citizen of the USA, resident in WA state. So. I would like to see the USA clean up its act; I would particularly like WA to clean it up. I can most effectively contact officials, etc, and attend meetings & interest groups in relation to this sort of event. This is not whataboutism, this is dealing with the parts of the world I can affect.

(4) If Covid was released from a military/research lab because someone goofed on a security protocol, what does that matter to me, compared to someone who got sneezed on by an animal? Seriously. I don't think it matters in the wash. Health systems have to be resilient to novel pathogens, regardless of the etiology of patient zero.

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