zlacker

[parent] [thread] 17 comments
1. totalZ+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-22 19:49:25
Sometimes diplomacy means you smile when you don't want to smile. WHO has to play politics until we get this virus under control (ie, vaccines distributed worldwide). If WHO blames China now, in the thick of things, it would damage the world's ability to further study the origins of the virus and the results of Chinese research. Chinese vaccines are being used and studied in many countries worldwide and that is a good thing. Apart from the obvious benefits of those vaccines, better access to data gives us an inactivated vaccine counterfactual with which to evaluate the mRNA and protein subunit vaccines.

CDC and other US government officials, on the other hand, must ratchet up their criticism of China as well as WHO. I agree with you there. It's alarming that there are so few PR ramifications for China. From the looks of it, either their unsanitary bushmeat consumption got the world sick, or their irresponsible laboratory containment procedures did. Both are a reflection of China's culture, and were only exacerbated by authoritarian crackdown upon the early warnings issued by Chinese medical professionals. The US government shouldn't defend bad practices and systemic problems in the name of multilateral cooperation. That variety of ethical blindness forgives bad faith from our counterparts and damages our hegemony.

replies(2): >>echelo+o4 >>hetspo+I4
2. echelo+o4[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:06:09
>>totalZ+(OP)
> CDC and other US government officials, on the other hand, must ratchet up their criticism of China as well as WHO. I agree with you there. It's alarming that there are so few PR ramifications for China.

The US relies on Chinese manufacturing. If trade ends, the West will suffer. Consumer and industrial goods can't be built, which could incredibly damage the economy.

Manufacturing is shifting to other countries - Vietnam, India, etc. It's been driven by rising costs in China, but we're seeing an acceleration to de-risk the supply chain. TSM is being asked to build fabs in the US. Slowly, the most strategic pieces are being maneuvered.

China is building up its navy to protect itself. If they lose the South China Sea, they could be blockaded and starved of energy, resources, and food. They're building to reach parity with the US Navy or even outgun it, and they're trying to stall long enough that they can win should there be an encounter.

The US and its allies are ramping up criticism of China, and you can see it in diplomatic activity, news, and social media. The rhetoric will grow until they're ready to shift from soft negotiations to taking a hard line.

The game is being played right now.

replies(1): >>dragon+Ya
3. hetspo+I4[view] [source] 2021-03-22 20:07:20
>>totalZ+(OP)
I don't understand why WHO is selling it's creditiblity in trade for politics. What is there to gain? Perhaps I am too short sighted but I cannot believe that this is ever the right compromise to take.

I also don't understand why they even had the slighest faith in a reliable investigation. After all these months of pushing back on researching accessing the site, they still bowed to their whims. How does this help the argument that it's better to just suck it up?

One thing I am really interested in to read more on is a historians analysis of the parallels one can draw from the period rising up to World War 2, and more importantly, how the rest of the world acted back then. When Germany was dissolving all their democratic processes, and started labellling jews, what did the rest of the world do? What did their neighbours do? Did they just happily keep on conducting business?

I have read slightly into it, but placing the responses of the countries at that time in the right context really requires some solid knowledge of history. If anyone knows interesting articles to read about the responses of the world during that time: I'm very interested.

replies(5): >>nwah1+pa >>tcpeki+ac >>fennec+Td >>Pyramu+Ii >>tgsovl+on
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4. nwah1+pa[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:31:06
>>hetspo+I4
>I don't understand why WHO is selling it's creditiblity in trade for politics. What is there to gain?

Might have something to do with the fact that the leader of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom, was hand picked by the Chinese communist party and won the position over the US and EU's favored choice.

replies(1): >>coldte+Qc
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5. dragon+Ya[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:33:46
>>echelo+o4
> China is building up its navy to protect itself. If they lose the South China Sea, they could be blockaded and starved of energy, resources, and food. They're building to reach parity with the US Navy or even outgun it, and they're trying to stall long enough that they can win should there be an encounter.

China has absolutely no chance to meet head-to-head against a US Carrier Strike Group on neutral territory. Absolutely none, and the US has TEN Carrier Strike Groups.

Ex: If China + US decides that we need to fight over in Antartica, the US will win in nearly every feasible encounter.

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China's plan isn't to win or even challenge the Navy on the high seas. Instead, China's plan is to assert military strength with the seas it is close to: asserting military might against Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Korea, and other local minor powers.

Furthermore: Chinese air-forces can launch from Mainland China to support any hypothetical naval operations.

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EX: Its not trying to beat US in a fair fight. China is likely aiming to beat the US in an "unfair fight": any fight close to China's territories + air force + cruise missile range might stand a chance against a US Carrier Strike Group.

A few powerful Chinese ships under the protective cover of cruise-missiles + Chinese airforce is probably the plan. It only will be effective when close to the Chinese coast, but that's all China really cares about.

replies(1): >>echelo+Hd
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6. tcpeki+ac[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:38:20
>>hetspo+I4
I recently read a very good book that was not so much a broad overview, but rather a closer look at the American ambassador and his family in Germany in the 1930s. I can wholeheartedly strongly recommend it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Garden_of_Beasts

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7. coldte+Qc[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:40:35
>>nwah1+pa
"During its 140th meeting in January 2017, the Executive Board of the WHO shortlisted Tedros as the front runner out of six candidates through two rounds of secret voting. He collected the most votes during both rounds.[citation needed] Tedros "was supported by a bloc of African and Asian countries, including China, which has considerable influence with those members" while "the US, UK and Canada... lent their support to... the British doctor David Nabarro." One observer called it "a really nasty" election."

Basically: "Oh, someone else can play the same game we've played for a century with UN, WHO, IMF, etc. - how dare they?"

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8. echelo+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:44:45
>>dragon+Ya
> China has absolutely no chance to meet head-to-head against a US Carrier Strike Group on neutral territory. Absolutely none, and the US has TEN Carrier Strike Groups.

Right now. But take a look at the shipbuilding output they've achieved. In ten to twenty years, China could easily rival the US Navy.

replies(2): >>dvt+bm >>dragon+Ep
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9. fennec+Td[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 20:45:37
>>hetspo+I4
> I don't understand why WHO is selling it's creditiblity in trade for politics. What is there to gain?

You reason about WHO as an institution, while disregarding the principal-agent problem. The leaders of WHO are very strongly influenced by China, and as a result the institution is working to please China, rather than working to fulfill its nominal mission. Its leaders will see ample rewards for corrupting the institution.

replies(1): >>hetspo+hq1
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10. Pyramu+Ii[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:04:30
>>hetspo+I4
> When Germany was dissolving all their democratic processes, and started labellling jews, what did the rest of the world do? What did their neighbours do? Did they just happily keep on conducting business?

The 1936 Olympic Summer Games are a good starting point in my opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics

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11. dvt+bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:17:42
>>echelo+Hd
> In ten to twenty years, China could easily rival the US Navy.

People said this 20 years ago. We've already started to see the CCP losing ground (see HK), and I'm quite bearish on the Party going forward. Jinping is 67, and I expect to see a major power struggle which will leave the Chinese Communist Party crippled when he dies.

replies(2): >>mrob+vr >>random+lC2
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12. tgsovl+on[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:22:46
>>hetspo+I4
How bad of a deal it is to sell your credibility should have been obvious since April 2020.

The lies about masks may have helped with shortages in the short term. The result is now that people rightfully distrust everything their governments say.

replies(1): >>reduce+H91
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13. dragon+Ep[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:33:56
>>echelo+Hd
China has many smaller Missile Destroyers or Frigates, and has far more production than the USA right now. True.

However, smaller ships aren't going to do jack-diddly squat against a Carrier Strike Group in a neutral situation (ie: both sides meet in Antarctica). F-18s have an effective strike range of over 1000-miles.

Submarines might have some theoretical advantages, but the 110,000 ton Ford-class Carriers moves faster than pretty much every submarine on the planet, so Submarines literally cannot speed up fast enough to engage.

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Those smaller Chinese Ships are going to rely upon a lot of Air support + Cruise Missile support from the mainland if they ever wish to actually engage with a US Carrier Strike Group.

Staying within the protective cover of SAM (against air threats), Cruise Missiles (against the CSG themselves)... and providing a launch platform for various missiles, Chinese Destroyers probably can do a job in a hypothetical fight vs US Navy within the confines of the South China Sea.

But once they leave the protective cover of China's mainland... its all over. Swarms of F18s will just launch missiles at all the Destroyers, while the Carrier Strike Group sits back a thousand miles away.

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That's why the question isn't about those small Chinese ships (even though China is making a lot of them). The big question is about the performance of those Chinese Carriers. At 70,000 tons or so, they're much lighter than the 110,000 ton Ford-class carriers.

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14. mrob+vr[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-22 21:40:54
>>dvt+bm
>We've already started to see the CCP losing ground (see HK)

How is violating the Sino-British Joint Declaration and getting away with it "losing ground"? The Hong Kong protests failed and Hongkongers now have less freedom than before.

replies(1): >>totalZ+AR
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15. totalZ+AR[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 00:00:23
>>mrob+vr
Foreign investment in HK was down 34.4% in 2019 versus the prior year [0]. Apart from the immediate ramifications of a year of protests, Beijing's effort to clamp down on HK was an economic self-own that opens the floodgates for Western hawkishness on Taiwan, Xinjiang, and every other area where China's expansionism overlaps with its economic ambitions. Beijing could have allowed HK to remain as it was, using it to entice the West. Instead, their authoritarian tack has reminded the frog to check the temperature of its bath.

I don't think they got away with much. Even if foreign investment rebounds in HK, Western complacency toward China will not find its voice again for many decades, and in that time, every Chinese treaty negotiation will be viewed as a bad-faith caricature of real diplomacy.

[0] https://unctad.org/system/files/official-document/wir2020_en...

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16. reduce+H91[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 02:29:35
>>tgsovl+on
Seriously wtf. We're trying to combat disinformation and distrust in info from authorities on the subjects, and the CDC and Fauci comes out with that blatant "noble lie." I can't take these institutions seriously the same way again.
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17. hetspo+hq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 05:10:08
>>fennec+Td
I was not aware of the name for the principal-agent problem, thank you for that. I do wonder though if it's just ample rewards. I believe the most efficient mode to let others do your biddings is by threatening harsh backlash on refusals to cooperate, and providing ample rewards on cooperation, this to make the incentive even bigger. So perhaps you can also add to it that WHO leaders will face strong backlash by _not_ corrupting the institution.
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18. random+lC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-23 15:08:05
>>dvt+bm
Why do you think so? The CCP and Xi has shown they are more than saavy enough to avoid a power struggle. He has at least 10-15 more years left as well, and the battle for Taiwan will probably take shape within that time frame.

HK they won easily. Western countries like UK and especially Europe are completely useless. Only the US can coordinate and shore up a coordinated response against China.

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