zlacker

I just assume the ccp default mode is to cover up, even when there is nothing to cover up. When legitimacy derives from competence rather than from election, you better never have any high profile incompetence.

>>IIAOPS+(OP)
That's been a problem even internally in China where local government hides things from those up the chain and then things get out of hand.

>>IIAOPS+(OP)
You're being down-voted but this is exactly what my friends who live in China have told me. People were also downvoting big time back in March when I and others were saying that the numbers China was quoting were made the heck up. Suddenly the western media realizes that's true[1] yet we don't see a mass back-lash against China as a result...

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55481397

>>Der_Ei+zl
"Chinese friends/wife/coworker said" is particularly kind of ridiculous appeal to authority considering the average citizen is not typically a subject matter expert on relevant topics being discussed outside of generalized familiarity with the censorship apparatus. The only useful things the average Chinese person will tell you is Chinese numbers / stats with Chinese characteristics are not accurate, but analysts familiar with Chinese stats will at least use oblique indicators to tell you if numbers are useful, i.e. Chinese GDP smoothing.

Or in this case, how covid19 export case numbers from places like Taiwan, HK, SK, Singapore, Australia, Newzealand all indicate Chinese numbers are not grossly exaggerated - China only exported a fraction of covid19 cases compared to Europe or North America because covid19 never exploded in China due to harsh restrictions. The article you're citing is also sourcing figures from _Chinese_ CDC on antibody prevalence rate which is expected to be higher than pure testing data seen in similar studies in other countries. So again, it's official Chinese numbers being useful and comporting to similar measures elsewhere. The difference is western media like BBC attempting to spin as the numbers being uniquely nefarious and useful idiots eating it up, just like in this NYT article.

>>duxup+M1
This is the kind of behavior you see in organizations where the penalty for making mistakes is overly severe, the only recourse for people is to lie and cover-up the truth at all costs. This is how projects at some companies continue despite being way behind schedule and overbudget until eventually the weight of the truth brings everything crashing down.

>>duxup+M1
It’s how all centrally planned systems work. Avoiding accountability for failure is always the most optimal strategy, which inevitably ends up involving concealing failure. It was one of the defining characteristics of the soviet system. You can even see it play out in large companies (which essentially operate as miniature planned economies), where political actors promote bad ideas, and then somehow end up rewarded after they fail. The only difference being that companies in a free market (usually) have to suffer the consequences of their failures, and politicians in a democratic system can (usually) be replaced if they fall out of favor.

>>fiftyf+wp
Everybody will always have a motive to prevent others from discovering their failures. A democratically elected politician has just as much reason to want their failures covered up as a CCP member does. The reason governments like the CCP have such a hard time dealing with that issue is that their entire system is set up so that you have one party, with no opposition, all working in concert to conceal the truth from the people. The “voters” have no mechanism to scrutinize their government, and no alternative to “vote” for if they don’t like what they’re doing. A natural consequence of this is that the opacity the CCP relies on to protect itself from scrutiny, also prevents central committee members from being able to effectively scrutinize the system themselves. A good story is always made available for public consumption, but what’s known internally is equally controlled by individual political actors trying to protect their own interests.

>>Americ+Ir
This is also why dictatorship always have corruption. They cannot have transparency which means there will be corruption.

Of course democracies are just as vulnerable to all the bad stuff as they are run by humans, but transparency is at least possible. Sadly we see national security being used as reason to avoid transparency, and of course corruption follows.

>>duxup+M1
That’s exactly what happened with covid-19. By the time Beijing knew about it things were already out of control.

>>Der_Ei+zl
Down votes or up votes don't matter to me - I'm just glad (and surprised) that what I thought was basically an innocuous "IMO" comment generated so much discourse.

Isn't this the point of public forums? To encourage discussion?

>>fiftyf+wp
The old story of the Chinese general Chen Shen comes to mind: Apparently he was running late due to rainstorms and the penalty for appearing this late to the Qin emperor was execution. Since that’s the same penalty for open rebellion, he decided he might as well try that too. And that was the beginning of the end of the Qin dynasty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Sheng_Wu_Guang_uprising

If the penalty for lying and being caught is the same league as screwing up, people are going to cover up problems.

>>mattne+2F
> And that was the beginning of the end of the Qin dynasty.

Not what I was expecting, but still a really interesting story.

>>vimy+tA
Yeah...the irony is Beijing blames Wuhan for not being transparent. And here's Beijing doing the same.

>>kmonse+At
> Sadly we see national security being used as reason to avoid transparency, and of course corruption follows.

Man it took forever for someone to make this point. There's a lot of bad Chinese Gov behavior that US Gov players absolutely aspire to.

>>WarOnP+BK
Any organisation, or group, or person who’s granted any power will tend towards trying to accumulate more power. So while your comment is a bit hyperbolic, it’s true of the US government in the same way it’s true of every other government. For any grossly authoritarian policy you see the US government implement, you’ll typically find equivalent policies in Canada and the EU and the UK and Australia...

It’s not a new thing. The (paraphrased) quote “the price of freedom is eternal vigilance” is at least a couple hundred of years old. In practice however it’s not a very simple proposition at all. People typically agree with endlessly granting government additional powers when it’s for a policy they agree with.

The difference between the US (or France, or Germany, or the UK...) and China however, is that we actually have some mechanisms for holding our government to account (however flawed they might be). Whereas Chinese citizens have none at all.

>>duxup+M1
A madman with a gun is only ever told things that stop him from pulling the trigger.

This is true of any hierarchical power structure, but is especially bad in overtly authoritarian ones.

>>mattne+2F
That's a fascinating story thanks for sharing.

>>dirtyi+0p
Shhh, we need to cover the uncomfortable truth that our numbers could have been better if we took (and take) the threat serious

>>__m+4S
By that same logic - Did you ever leave your house feb 2020 to now? If you did, you could’ve done more.

>>fma+7H
No irony here. The axiom is party doesn’t make mistakes, the only possible consequence is others are to blame.

>>duxup+M1
It's exactly like in Chernobyl's case, only the Soviets couldn't cover up the cause and got their act together when everybody found out.

>>anonym+rT
I turned into a freakin' hermit... How about you?

>>sverha+M11
Thats my secret, I was a hermit before covid (not OP).

>>alasda+MP
If we accept your premise about madmen, then this

> This is true of any hierarchical power structure

is only true if everyone in the hierarchy is a madman.

>>petre+DU
I'm often reminded of Chernobyl by the Wuhan stuff.

>>mattne+2F
The English idiom for this is "I'd rather be hanged for a sheep than a lamb."

That is to say, if the punishment for any kind of crime is death, no matter how serious or how trivial, you might as well go ahead and commit the much more serious one and try and cover that up instead.

Either way you're fucked, so why not go all in?

>>sverha+M11
I turned into a jaded citizen. When first reports from China emerged, and we saw how the CCP was dragging people out of their homes over a ‘flu.’ I knew something was very, very wrong. I told my parents and immediate family to secure provisions for at least 3 months and to prepare for a time to not leave the house at all until c19 passes.

Then, nothing happened. Not one country stopped their domestic travel, no one prepared and mandated a ‘3 month summer staycation’ (my poor attempt at marketing a terrible circumstance with some positive spin)... and we all started blaming each other.

That was sickening to me... it’s bad enough when we don’t take the proper action to protect our fellow neighbor, but even after acknowledging the cause is basically lost, we turn on each other.

So my quip was in that jaded poor taste, when I saw the finger pointing beginning again... and I should have just commented this to begin with...