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1. nostra+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-01-22 21:08:43
Unpopular prediction: we're going to solve global warming by the 22nd century, but we're going to "solve" it with nuclear winter and the destruction of 80-90% of humanity. Once we're down to a billion people or so and most of what passes for advanced civilization has been destroyed, carbon emissions and warming won't be a problem.
replies(5): >>hammoc+F >>expore+p2 >>stretc+15 >>missed+yd >>imtrin+Fr
2. hammoc+F[view] [source] 2021-01-22 21:12:42
>>nostra+(OP)
Bill Gates wants to test an artificial nuclear winter... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7350713/Bill...
replies(1): >>jessau+45
3. expore+p2[view] [source] 2021-01-22 21:23:32
>>nostra+(OP)
Doomsday predictions about climate change are very popular.
4. stretc+15[view] [source] 2021-01-22 21:45:24
>>nostra+(OP)
Nuclear winter seems unlikely to me, and from what I understand I'm not alone. Cities are no longer prone to huge firestorms like they once were. Furthermore most nuclear strikes would probably be airbursts to maximize blast effects, but that means less material being thrown into the atmosphere. If the attack were calculated to cause maximum fallout instead, airbursts of salted bombs might be used, which would poison huge areas of land but would not particularly contribute to a nuclear winter.
replies(1): >>nostra+26
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5. jessau+45[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 21:45:53
>>hammoc+F
Albedo modification is the obvious response to the situation. Of course testing should start small, but the idea that 2 kg of material in one location could lead to a runaway deep-freeze earth situation is not plausible. Those global warming enthusiasts who oppose this research seem more interested in political implications than in actually reducing warming.
replies(2): >>imtrin+Pr >>csnove+fC
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6. nostra+26[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 21:53:21
>>stretc+15
The primary targets for nukes aren't cities, they're other nukes. Most of these warheads are set for groundburst (or underground burst - I remember a bunch of research in the 80s about burrowing/penetrating warheads), because to blow up a 3-4 foot thick reinforced concrete silo you basically need to land right on top of it. That's the big fallout threat.
replies(1): >>stretc+b8
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7. stretc+b8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-22 22:06:59
>>nostra+26
The nuclear winter theories I've read all involve the injection of soot into the stratosphere by nuclear-ignited firestorms. Buried nuclear blasts can dig pretty big holes (Sedan crater and all the other craters in the Nevada Test Site, which looks like the surface of the moon) and are certainly a huge fallout threat, but the claim of nuclear strikes against buried silos causing a nuclear winter is a new one to me.

Some napkin math: the Sedan test was optimized to dig a big hole, was buried almost 200 meters deep, and moved about 11 million tons of earth, leaving a crater of 0.005 cubic kilometers. The 1815 eruption of Mount Tambura, which caused a 'year without summer', ejected 160-213 cubic kilometers of material into the stratosphere, something like 32 thousand times as much as the Sedan blast. I'm guessing each strike against a nuclear silo would probably create craters a fraction the size of Sedan.

replies(1): >>marcos+HK
8. missed+yd[view] [source] 2021-01-22 22:43:04
>>nostra+(OP)
Do you realize how cheap sea walls are? The Dutch were building them 800 years ago with medieval technology and resources.
replies(1): >>nostra+bq
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9. nostra+bq[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 00:00:55
>>missed+yd
My threat model for global warming is different from most people's (hence "unpopular prediction"). I think sea-level rise is going to be a non-event: the worst models predict about 18 inches over a century, which is less than tidal variation in most places.

Changing weather and vegetation patterns is going to be a big event. We're going to see some previously fertile areas (Mesopotamia, Northern Europe, sub-Saharan Africa) suffer from decade-long droughts, while other previously uninhabitable areas (Canadian & Russian taiga and the Sahara, for example) become fertile grasslands. This will drive widespread migration, which has a tendency to destroy political stability and lead to mass wars. Nature isn't going to kill us; we're going to kill each other because some of us are going to starve and others are going to get fabulously wealthy.

replies(2): >>missed+ZF >>tricer+RL
10. imtrin+Fr[view] [source] 2021-01-23 00:11:40
>>nostra+(OP)
That's a very stupid solution when you consider how much money you could make from reducing CO2 emissions. People just have to stop have an intensive desire to harm themselves. That is all.

The idea that you can gain anything from denying climate change and skip out on preventative measures is just wrong. The economics alone tell you that this is a losing play and I am not even talking about the impact on the climate, just the potential for economic growth that you end up denying by denying climate change.

replies(1): >>nostra+kD
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11. imtrin+Pr[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 00:13:08
>>jessau+45
There are simple ways to avoid resorting to desperate measures like these. Just do them and stop worrying about extreme situations.
replies(1): >>jessau+Jw7
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12. csnove+fC[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 01:53:23
>>jessau+45
> Those global warming enthusiasts who oppose this research seem more interested in political implications than in actually reducing warming.

There are serious and legitimate concerns about albedo modification research which have nothing to do with politics. I don’t think that anyone in the field is concerned that this small-scale experiment will lead to global catastrophe, but it’s a stepping stone to something which could lead to those bad outcomes—and it’s not clear that a small test like this would be able to answer the most important questions that we’d need answered before actually embarking on a global albedo modification programme.

Of the various issues already covered by the Daily Mail story, one thing it doesn’t really talk about is that albedo modification requires a functioning human civilisation capable of injecting aerosols to the atmosphere to exist, without ever stopping, for thousands of years. A single disruption could cause up to 0.7°C of warming in one year[0].

About the only case in which something like this makes sense is if we’ve solved the emissions problem, but a bit too late, so only need a bridge for a few decades while we are actively pulling CO2 from the atmosphere.

If you want to learn more, away from the sensationalism of the Daily Mail, the podcast Brave New Planet had an episode about this last October[1], which is where most of my current knowledge comes from.

[0] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/4/4/045...

[1] https://www.bravenewplanet.org/episodes/a-radical-approach-c...

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13. nostra+kD[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 02:03:09
>>imtrin+Fr
I'd agree that it's a stupid solution. I don't want 80% of humanity to die, particularly since when you do out the math on resource usage and projected population peaks, there's a good chance that everybody could live just fine.

But I've spent a good deal of time studying game theory and situations where the behavior of the whole is significantly dumber than the behavior of each individual actor, because the individual actors' interests are not aligned. I think global warming is going to be one of those. Sure, if we could come to a rational collective-action agreement, we could solve it. The history of collective-action as a solution is pretty dismal.

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14. missed+ZF[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 02:29:34
>>nostra+bq
But I think what's overlooked is that these changes will happen over a long period of time. 20, 50, 100 years. We will grow different crops 100 years hence, but we were growing different crops 100 years ago. There will be lots of immigration over the next 100 years, but there's been a lot of immigration over the past 100 years, including in my family and likely in yours.

I think the costs of a changing climate are real, but I think the benefits are too often overlooked. For instance, most landmass on earth is not at the equator, but it's in the northern hemisphere. Much of it is uninhabitable at present but will become habitable as the climate changes. Canada, Sweden, Finland, and others will become more than 100km tall. A lot of Russia, and Northern Europe, as well as Mongolia and South America will become more habitable. Further, according to Lancet, very cold weather kills more people than very hot weather, so as winters become more mild and summers become hotter, the net effect will be fewer deaths.

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15. marcos+HK[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 03:21:09
>>stretc+b8
Since the concept of 32 thousand nukes exploding in a war sounded realistic (a bit on the "too many" side, but nothing completely impossible), I got into wikipedia to check if that was any particularly large bomb. I have bad news for you:

> The fusion-fission blast had a yield equivalent to 104 kilotons of TNT (435 terajoules)

That is a quite small fusion-fission bomb. If your calculation is right, we are talking about some hundreds of more normal ones, not tens of thousands.

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16. tricer+RL[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 03:31:14
>>nostra+bq
> Canadian & Russian taiga and the Sahara, for example, become fertile grasslands

It'll take a lot more than climate for those areas to become productive. Glaciers have scraped away most of the topsoil in the Canadian shield[1], for instance. The Sahara desert's sand isn't a great growing medium. And so on.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield

replies(1): >>ido+t81
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17. ido+t81[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-23 08:50:47
>>tricer+RL
I'm Israeli and moved to Austria and later Germany in adulthood. I now live in Berlin, which is in the middle of an area the Germans consider unsuitable to agriculture due to poor soil quality.

And yet in Israel people managed to employ advanced AgTech to grow food in areas with much worse soil than Berlin-Brandenburg & with less abundant water reserves (and they also did this back when Israel was a much poorer country than Germany). In fact aside from some grains import Israel is mostly self-sufficient in food production. Germany is not despite being less densely populated and having much better natural conditions for growing food, because it is more expensive than importing food.

If need be these areas can produce food if the climate is suitable, it will just not be as cheap as the food we can currently get elsewhere (but then again AgTech continues to advance and economies of scale kick in). Anecdotally as a consumer groceries in Israel cost about 2-3x as much as in Germany but both countries suffer a lot more from obesity than hunger.

Also as an unintended result of the above Israel is today a significant exporter of AgTech.

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18. jessau+Jw7[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-01-25 16:46:08
>>imtrin+Pr
If you can (non-violently) convince everyone on earth to suffer massive setbacks in health and material comforts, then by all means go ahead. In the meantime, something that has a chance of actually happening should be pursued, even if it isn't "simple" by some arbitrary measure.
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