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1. ferros+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-08-08 17:46:57
How covert is staring at someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations?
replies(7): >>Stefan+L >>search+K1 >>almond+c2 >>elliek+d2 >>functi+L2 >>chrism+i9 >>sandwo+Hk
2. Stefan+L[view] [source] 2020-08-08 17:52:31
>>ferros+(OP)
Take a picture, it will last longer
3. search+K1[view] [source] 2020-08-08 17:58:34
>>ferros+(OP)
I sometimes wonder if FBI and other agencies release fake information so we all look out for them rather than their actual secret methods.
replies(2): >>jmnico+B8 >>c3534l+7n
4. almond+c2[view] [source] 2020-08-08 18:01:51
>>ferros+(OP)
Probably knew which variations to look for on top of looking for slight hints, while trying to show a lacking sign of confidence by looking down.
5. elliek+d2[view] [source] 2020-08-08 18:01:56
>>ferros+(OP)
If you scroll down to the "CIA Lacing Gallery" you can see that on men's dress shoes the different lacing techniques would be pretty obvious with a quick glance. The laces are either - or X

Direct link to one of the photos: https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg

replies(1): >>jmnico+T8
6. functi+L2[view] [source] 2020-08-08 18:05:57
>>ferros+(OP)
Well, don't stare at them. You know in advance that your contact will be walking down Merriweather Lane at 11:30am. If his shoes sport a single "X" near the bottom, that means the dead drop has the microfilm ready for pickup. If it doesn't have that "X", then try again next Tuesday.

If you see two X's in his lacing, the package is at the alternate drop site.

If he has 3 X patterns, you're burned! Make your way to the safehouse after losing any potential tails.

Glance quickly, agent, and keep moving.

replies(5): >>ferros+z6 >>stordo+0a >>hinkle+Sd >>unixhe+xj >>sandwo+jm
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7. ferros+z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 18:36:54
>>functi+L2
Thanks for explaining like this. It seems from the downvotes to my comment most people don’t see it as a valid question.
replies(1): >>NetOpW+Lj
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8. jmnico+B8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 18:53:21
>>search+K1
True story : I was devastated to learn that eating carrots for enhancing night vision was a WWII British hoax to confuse the Germans.

I spent the better part of my teenage years eating raw carrots to be a better Ninja!

replies(3): >>LeoPan+l9 >>ahmedf+B9 >>kbenso+2z
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9. jmnico+T8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 18:54:46
>>elliek+d2
It depends where it happens : if it's a sitting meeting yes it would look strange. But in the street do you even look at passing people shoelaces ?
replies(1): >>pc86+ke
10. chrism+i9[view] [source] 2020-08-08 18:59:17
>>ferros+(OP)
You’ve clearly never been in the Eastern European countries. Eye contact is... iffy.

There is an old joke. How do you tell an extroverted Estonian from an introverted Estonian? He stares at your shoes, not his own.

There are (at least now) plenty of “extroverted” Estonians, but I’ve heard dozens and dozens of stories of the “don’t make eye contact, just keep walking” variety during the USSR.

Also, staring at either party’s shoes may mean their own smartphone these days...

replies(1): >>aasasd+sy
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11. LeoPan+l9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 18:59:53
>>jmnico+B8
That's true! To be more specific, the British had just invented the ground interception radar to spot incoming aircraft, and didn't want the Germans to think they had developed a technological solution.

I don't know if they ever thought the myth would catch on as well as it did, but it's still widely believed today. (Perhaps because there's no downside, eating carrots is still good for you, it just doesn't improve your eyesight.)

replies(1): >>ThePad+W9
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12. ahmedf+B9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:03:29
>>jmnico+B8
> Decades later rumors swirled that the British Royal Air Force pushed that message as a cover-up for the recently adopted radar technology they were secretly relying on for their nighttime skirmishes.

> whilst the [British] Air Ministry were happy to go along with the story [of carrot-improved vision], they never set out to use it to fool the Germans.

> The German intelligence service were well aware of our ground-based radar installation and would not be surprised by the existence of radar in aircraft. In fact, the RAF were able to confirm the existence of German airborne radar simply by fitting commercial radios into a bomber and flying over France listening to the various radio frequencies!

Link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-c...

I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans.

replies(1): >>messe+Bc
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13. ThePad+W9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:06:32
>>LeoPan+l9
Additionally, sugar was also heavily rationed, while carrots (which are quite high in sugars) IIRC weren't.

Carrot cake also had a surge in popularity at the time (if the great show "Supersizers eat..." is to believed).

replies(1): >>throwa+Ef
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14. stordo+0a[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:06:58
>>functi+L2
This setup reminds me of operation PIMLICO:

> Every Tuesday, shortly after 7:00, a British MI6 officer would take a morning stroll at the Kutuzovsky Prospekt in Moscow. He would pass outside a designated bakery at exactly 7:24 a.m. local time. If he saw Gordievsky standing outside the bakery holding a grocery bag, it meant that the double agent was requesting to be exfiltrated as a matter of urgency. Gordievsky would then have to wait outside the bakery until a second MI6 officer appeared, carrying a bag from the Harrods luxury department store in London. The man would also be carrying a Mars bar (a popular British candy bar) and would bite into it while passing right in front of Gordievsky. That would be a message to him that his request to be exfiltrated had been received.

https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/

replies(3): >>TheOth+km >>markdo+ls >>SergeA+jE
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15. messe+Bc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:25:32
>>ahmedf+B9
> I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans.

Could it have had something to do with rationing? Perhaps they were trying to increase carrot consumption.

replies(1): >>ahmedf+Te
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16. hinkle+Sd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:32:52
>>functi+L2
Sit at a cafe reading a paper or the menu, but look past it at the ground?
replies(2): >>rzzzt+Ci >>saati+Oh1
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17. pc86+ke[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:34:26
>>jmnico+T8
If you're a spy and one of your assets is passing you a message, then of course you would.

And if that's not the case, you're probably not looking at other people's shoelaces - which is the entire point.

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18. ahmedf+Te[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:38:23
>>messe+Bc
Yep, that's what I thought too, but had no way of confirming it.

It can also be that they wanted citizens to cultivate more of it in their home gardens for its nutritional values. But either way, I have no data to confirm it.

replies(1): >>saalwe+CD
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19. throwa+Ef[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 19:42:50
>>ThePad+W9
Huh. Didn't know. Proof http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html
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20. rzzzt+Ci[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:01:54
>>hinkle+Sd
Use the standard issue prop newspaper with holes cut out for the eyes.
replies(1): >>hinkle+c12
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21. unixhe+xj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:07:44
>>functi+L2
Excellent description. Love it. I couldn't understand the website description of this technique.
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22. NetOpW+Lj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:09:27
>>ferros+z6
Par for the course here. Glad your question was answered, I was curious as well.
23. sandwo+Hk[view] [source] 2020-08-08 20:16:23
>>ferros+(OP)
>> someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations?

If you have a military background it is completely normal. Beyond boot polishing, how one ties one's shoes can identify their nationality, background and even trade. They don't think twice about looking at someone's shoes.

There is an old method for spotting a US marine: Ask them to change their socks. The guy who takes one sock off at a time, changing one sock before even untying the second shoe, that's a probable marine. The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. The guy who skips a few holes in the middle: air force.

Think I am exaggerating? search youtube for military shoe tying vids: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+l...

replies(3): >>Nautil+El >>aasasd+8y >>cbsks+BS
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24. Nautil+El[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:23:49
>>sandwo+Hk
Well that sounds like a very specific scene.
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25. sandwo+jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:29:15
>>functi+L2
The X as a signal is a big deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JMHrrSshgc

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26. TheOth+km[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:29:24
>>stordo+0a
This seems either unlikely or questionably competent. Gordievsky was well known to the KGB and loitering pointlessly outside a bakery would only have aroused suspicions - which would have been confirmed by the second agent, because anyone carrying a Harrods bag in Soviet Moscow would have stood out like a very obvious person of interest.
replies(1): >>oh_sig+Rr
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27. c3534l+7n[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 20:35:59
>>search+K1
They absolutely do. And they might release very good information along with a carefully planted piece of terrible advice. So you might see a tutorial about how to send drugs through the mail that is 99% good advice, and one piece of intentionally bad advice that police officers are currently watching extra carefully. You don't have to get very high up in government to see examples of people planting false information to lead people astray about how things really work.
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28. oh_sig+Rr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 21:18:31
>>TheOth+km
It could be a matter of routine: Leave your house at 7:00AM every morning. Walk 15 minutes to the bakery. Order and be out the bakery door by 7:20AM. In normal circumstances, you just leave and go about your day. Only once would you stand around for an extra 4 minutes - say reading a paper, or eating what you just bought. Otherwise it looks like a normal routine.
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29. markdo+ls[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 21:22:31
>>stordo+0a
That was poorly conceived. They'd have to keep those things stored somewhere for as long as the spy was active. What if a rat ate the last Mars bar at 6:00am?
replies(3): >>kortil+bx >>iooi+Wz >>Smitha+JT2
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30. kortil+bx[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:07:28
>>markdo+ls
Tell the rats that the Mars bars are off limits and they can stick to the Cadbury chocolates.
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31. aasasd+8y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:18:18
>>sandwo+Hk
In fact, Ian's Shoelace website mentions several lacing and tying methods used and prescribed in the military of different countries.
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32. aasasd+sy[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:22:14
>>chrism+i9
Well, there's the answer for whether Estonia is a Nordic country.

For the reference: https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg

https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0E...

http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bu...

replies(2): >>pantal+7B >>kozise+P51
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33. kbenso+2z[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:29:06
>>jmnico+B8
You and me both! I mean, I like carrots, so I was eating them as a snack (my preferred method was to get a full carrot, eat around the core, and then eat the sweet core by itself), but I remember thinking whenever I got one "I wonder how much this will end up helping my vision" some day.
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34. iooi+Wz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:38:58
>>markdo+ls
Obviously HN always knows better, this reminds me of the Dropbox post.

There's a great book that covers every single aspect of this escape, "The Spy and the Traitor" by Ben Macintyre. Rest assured that the British embassy had plenty of Mars bars and Harrods bags for this signal!

replies(1): >>chango+HT
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35. pantal+7B[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 22:54:40
>>aasasd+sy
Those images are much more commonplace these days
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36. saalwe+CD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 23:24:09
>>ahmedf+Te
Hell, it could have been a stupid reason. Maybe someone actually thought carrots improved vision; maybe someone just thought it was hilarious to make people thinks that; maybe someone needed another poster to make to meet quota and ran out of ideas; maybe someone had a bet on whether they could get a carrot campaign approved.
replies(1): >>jmnico+of3
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37. SergeA+jE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-08 23:31:11
>>stordo+0a
Just read the same in Wikipedia. This is extremely strange. Harrods bag and Mars candy in 1985 Moscow would be a telltale the size of Kremlin tower. Kutuzovsky avenue was a KGB owned turf, lots of Communist apparatchik lived there, including late Secretary General Brezhnev.

It reminds me a joke about Soviet spy arriving in Berlin and caughting stares from everyone around. What's wrong with my cover? Is something gives me out? Maybe it is a parachute? Or AK-47? Ah, it should be blue Slavic eyes! And he wears a sunglasses just in case.

replies(2): >>functi+TM >>rtkwe+5P
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38. functi+TM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 01:38:50
>>SergeA+jE
> Harrods bag and Mars candy in 1985 Moscow would be a telltale the size of Kremlin tower. Kutuzovsky avenue was a KGB owned turf, lots of Communist apparatchik lived there, including late Secretary General Brezhnev.

I took it to mean that the MI6 agents were under diplomatic cover. It would not be strange for British diplomats to carry or eat British things, right? And it's also a decent defense against an accidental signal, since non-agents would naturally not have Mars bars nor bags from Harrods.

replies(2): >>etrevi+vc4 >>SergeA+nq4
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39. rtkwe+5P[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 02:13:39
>>SergeA+jE
Not every agent has to conceal their national identity, the UK had an embassy in the USSR so there were plenty of known Brits wandering around for one to randomly walk through the area. Embassies are classic points to run out of because there's an official reason for being in the country and some protection against retribution.
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40. cbsks+BS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 03:10:29
>>sandwo+Hk
> The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army.

That’s this lacing technique: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/commando-lacing.htm

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41. chango+HT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 03:31:57
>>iooi+Wz
I've read that the embassy folk have nothing to do most of the time so they spend months planning and preparing for this type of thing
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42. kozise+P51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 06:39:10
>>aasasd+sy
They perfected social distancing before it was cool.
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43. saati+Oh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 10:08:29
>>hinkle+Sd
Staring depressed on the ground wouldn't have looked out of place.
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44. hinkle+c12[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-09 17:44:39
>>rzzzt+Ci
I’d also recommend against the dark sunglasses. Almost as bad as the newspaper holes.

We met a celebrity once on a ferry. The only reason I even spotted her is because she was wearing a trench coat and ridiculous dark sunglasses like some sort of B movie operative. I happened to glance across the cabin just as she was walking past heading the same direction I was seated. Just a blink in full profile. After a moment of thinking, “no... she doesn’t live around here,” I turned to my wife and said, “was that?” And then looked at the woman across from us who had big eyes. When she passed outside the window it was definitely her. (Turns out her mother lived around there.)

Lady, you gotta work on your disguises. That outfit made you stick out like a sore thumb.

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45. Smitha+JT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 01:54:10
>>markdo+ls
I'm sure international spies are competent enough to keep the rats out of their tactical mars bars.
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46. jmnico+of3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 06:03:14
>>saalwe+CD
Actually carrots are good for your vision, but not your night vision.
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47. etrevi+vc4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 14:39:08
>>functi+TM
This is correct. The KGB had several known agents working out of their embassy during the Cold War. Diplomatic cover gave them protection for their activities.
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48. SergeA+nq4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 15:52:40
>>functi+TM
Like I said, Kutuzovsky avenu was (and probably still is) under massive state surveillance. English MI6 agent with diplomatic (under)cover will be spotted in minutes and their engagement and eye contact with highly ranked GRU officer will not pass below radar.
replies(2): >>sangno+jw4 >>functi+pw4
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49. sangno+jw4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 16:24:08
>>SergeA+nq4
I think choosing a street chock-full of high level Soviet functionaries might have been genius. How many of them would the MI6 agent "interact" with during a walk down the street? Would opening the Mars bar wrapper as he passes some general be the signal? Or the bite in front of the bakery? Or disposing the wrapper? Or the cough as the agent crosses paths with a Soviet diplomat? That's a very high noise floor. I suspect counter-intelligence would never figure it out until long after exfiltration was completed, unless they knew exactly what the signal was.
replies(1): >>SergeA+6H7
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50. functi+pw4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-10 16:24:16
>>SergeA+nq4
The whole point of this signalling scheme is to prevent eye contact, or any engagement. To an observer who's unaware of the system, it just looks like a local embassy official out for a stroll. Or doing some other routine thing that a lot of other diplomats also do. Meanwhile, Gordievsky is probably never even at that bakery. Or he is, but at random times that rarely overlap with British diplomats in the area. The only reason he would visit it at 7:24am on a Tuesday would be to signal for exfiltration. If and he's doing that, then the risk is worth it.

It's also only once a week that the timing is enforced, so they can vary things up throughout the week to hide that pattern in noise.

And the candy bar/Harrod's bag doesn't come into play unless Gordievsky needs an exfiltration. So it's not like they're noticing this weird thing where British diplomats always eat Mars bars every Tuesday. It would only happen once at most.

They know they're being surveilled. They can't change that. So they make their signal as mundane as possible.

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51. SergeA+6H7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-11 17:37:55
>>sangno+jw4
Now, that makes sense. I didn't think of it.
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