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[parent] [thread] 19 comments
1. munk-a+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-22 20:34:10
And this is exactly where the "Defund the Police" movement comes from and seems like an extremely good movement to pursue - shift that budget balance back in favor of specialized agencies that can better support social needs rather than forcing it all onto the police force. I really just wish it had gotten a better name since that title for the idea really divides people before they even open their minds.
replies(3): >>austin+h7 >>knodi1+9e >>graeme+7f
2. austin+h7[view] [source] 2020-06-22 21:05:12
>>munk-a+(OP)
Defunding the police is generally unpopular where I live. My big city is growing at about 22% decade over decade and will likely surpass San Jose in population over the next 10 years. It is also the lowest density big city in the US. In order to support the growing population the police force must continue to grow as well. The fastest growing area of the city is also the least policed. This not result of negligence from the city but just the geographic direction the city is growing towards and the funding limitations to meet the growing needs of the community. There are plans to put a precinct in my area of the city, which is strongly wanted, but it won’t happen if the police are defunded.
replies(2): >>plusse+bb >>cvlasd+hu
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3. plusse+bb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 21:23:41
>>austin+h7
What are the current home zoning vs planned updates/build for this area?

San Jose has issue with single family units over dominating the area; the need for denser housing options hasn't abated, nor for the surrounding county and the greater bay area. That has to be planned with local Transpo options, and now you enter the quagmire of 4 transportation agencies systems in the South Bay at least across several modes.

replies(1): >>austin+bh
4. knodi1+9e[view] [source] 2020-06-22 21:38:28
>>munk-a+(OP)
> since that title for the idea really divides people before they even open their minds.

Hence the brilliant onion headline, "‘So, It Means Making The Police Lose Their Homes And Forcing Them To Get A Divorce?’ Says Nation Still Struggling To Understand How Defunding The Police Works"

https://www.theonion.com/so-it-means-making-the-police-lose-...

5. graeme+7f[view] [source] 2020-06-22 21:42:43
>>munk-a+(OP)
The US actually spends a low amount of money on policing compared to the EU, where police kill fewer people. Further, the US also has a low number of police officers.

https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2019/01/09/charts-poli...?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

The defund the police narrative isn’t based on any actual examination of US police spending, or general public spending. The key issues are instead police unions, lack of police training in the US, impunity for police abuses, etc

Cambridge NJ is often cited as a model of reform. But I am not sure they reduced spending. Instead they disbanded and reformed their police.

replies(2): >>logjam+Uu >>munk-a+FB
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6. austin+bh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 21:51:53
>>plusse+bb
The land area of my big city is massive, so there is no risk of running out of land. The problem with that is the increases of traffic and commute times. The area where I live is also absolutely dominated by single family residences. Developers have been building 500+ houses per year in the 5 mile radius of my house over the last decade and space for more single family residences in this location is running out. Developers are turning from single family dwellings towards apartment complexes. The current residents in the area are strongly opposed to the development of multi family units that will only further congest already unbearable traffic conditions. The city had to widen roads to accommodate the rapidly growing population but keeps putting it off.
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7. cvlasd+hu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 23:15:29
>>austin+h7
> In order to support the growing population the police force must continue to grow as well.

Do you have a source for this claim? I mean we can all claim it is intuitive but just how many police, how "well funded", what equipment, and what jurisdiction?

replies(1): >>austin+1M
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8. logjam+Uu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-22 23:20:21
>>graeme+7f
I think you mean Camden, NJ.
replies(1): >>graeme+2I
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9. munk-a+FB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 00:16:50
>>graeme+7f
> The key issues are instead police unions, lack of police training in the US, impunity for police abuses, etc

Police unions, poor training and qualified immunity are really serious issues - but ones that are intractable to fight for on the national stage due to political gridlock. Just breaking up the unions as they stand right now and enforcing transparent employment history for law enforcement would make worlds of difference, but the action can't be taken unilaterally by a particular district - that district can ensure that incident reports are preserved but officers moving into the district may have had their employment history purged.

Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment.

replies(1): >>graeme+pJ
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10. graeme+2I[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 01:13:23
>>logjam+Uu
You’re right, thanks!
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11. graeme+pJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 01:23:21
>>munk-a+FB
> Defunding the police is an actual policy decision that can be made on a local scale to address issues of over policing and start reinvesting in crime prevention rather than punishment.

Can you give an example of a country that does what you recommend? If you can’t, what evidence do you have that it is the solution?

I’m not American. My criticism above is that the movement appears to have developed a policy idea that is not used in any country with a successful policing track record.

As for your claim that individual districts can’t take action....why? Cambden did. They’re hardly perfect, but it’s an improvement. They’re a local area.

And this story shows that when they did try cutting funding, before the reforms and it didn’t solve the problem. Only a concerted reform effort did.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disband...

Comment above was heavily downvoted, but no one has provided a meaningful reply to the stats. The numbers are clear. Compared to places with better policing, the US has a smaller number of officers per capita, and spends less.

The US does spend much more on prisons however, which is surely a mistake. To your point on shifting focus away from punishment this is one of the first places I would look to cut money: prisons.

In the UK, police killed only 3 people in 2019. There has been surprisingly little inquiry as to how they do it. I get that US police are bad, and so spending less money to get less of them might be an improvement. But to actually solve the problem it seems that changing the police is the better answer. And this will necessarily be local because most of the important stuff in the US is local.

replies(1): >>redis_+i81
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12. austin+1M[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 01:50:55
>>cvlasd+hu
It’s based on participation of people in things like city council attendance, bond package votes, participation on local Facebook pages, and so forth. No, I don’t have actual numbers.
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13. redis_+i81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 06:37:35
>>graeme+pJ
> I’m not American.

Well then.

- US police are above the law, and have free union-provided legal counsel.

If a city prosecutes an officer, he will sue them right back, and the union will threaten the careers of city councilpersons, DAs and judges at the next election. A perfect circle of corruption.

- DA's and judges are elected, so political from Day One of their careers. Public unions hold 20% or more of the votes and vote in a bloc. Either play with the unions, or finish second.

- the US is the most successful multicultural large country in history, but that makes things more complicated.

- everybody who wants a handgun has one, or two. A lot of people driving around illegally have a loaded gun under their seat.

replies(3): >>dragon+W81 >>graeme+Df1 >>masoni+FC1
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14. dragon+W81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 06:43:19
>>redis_+i81
> Public unions hold 20% or more of the votes

No, they don't. Public employees don’t, outside of a few localities with extremely high concentrations (which are usually military, which isn't unionized) make up 20% of the electorate, much less public sector unions holding 20% of votes.

> and vote in a bloc

No, they don't. Law enforcement and corrections unions often don't even lean toward the same major party as most other public sector unions.

replies(1): >>redis_+me1
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15. redis_+me1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 07:38:41
>>dragon+W81
In case you didn't notice, every election there's lawn signs saying "endorsed by the Police Union" or similar.

So get your facts straight.

If you want to see DA politics in action, watch just about any Law & Order episode when they discuss optics. Those "stories" are based on current affairs.

replies(1): >>dragon+EJ1
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16. graeme+Df1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 07:50:43
>>redis_+i81
I know that. The US police are a mob. It’s very apparent, from outside looking in.

How does that relate to my argument? My point was that attempting to tackle those factors is the actual solution.

(Would need a source on your 20% claim though. Endorsed by the police union is an appeal to voters outside the union, not an appeal to union share of electorate)

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17. masoni+FC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 11:15:34
>>redis_+i81

   a city prosecutes an officer, he will sue them right back
That's not how it works. First, you conflate criminal with civil law. Second, cities don't prosecute.
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18. dragon+EJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 12:18:13
>>redis_+me1
> In case you didn't notice, every election there's lawn signs saying "endorsed by the Police Union" or similar.

That doesn't contradict anything I said. There are signs saying that not because public sector unions as a whole either make up the 20% of the electorate you've claimed or vote in a unified block across different public sector unions as you've claimed, but because the general public, and especially voters that consider “law and order” an important concern, are particularly likely to be swayed by law enforcement union endorsements.

> If you want to see DA politics in action, watch just about any Law & Order episode when they discuss optics. Those "stories" are based on current affairs.

...often, quite badly. I've got a Political Science degrees from a subprogram specialized in the pragmatics of US electoral politics at all levels; “Law & Order” is, I know, entertaining to a lot of people, but it's not really a guide to reality on, well, anything.

replies(1): >>redis_+EW1
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19. redis_+EW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 13:33:17
>>dragon+EJ1
ok, PoliSci man:

Governments employ 20 percent or more of workers in nine states

https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-tho...

replies(1): >>dragon+we2
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20. dragon+we2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 15:02:09
>>redis_+EW1
> Governments employ 20 percent or more of workers in nine states

The claim was public sector unions, not government employees. And the claim was 20% of votes, not 20% of workers. A substantial share of government employees are not unionized; this is particularly true of federal government employees; and a substantial share of voters are not employed (some unemployed, but more out of the workforce, looked students, homemakers, and retirees.)

And nine states leave 41, or 82% of the total, where even that far-from-what-you-originally-claimed situation still doesn't apply.

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