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1. wespis+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-20 20:55:06
I live in an immediate suburb of Boston, and joined Nextdoor and joined to see what features were attracting so many folks to a new social media platform. Wow! Anyone with a tattoo, going to your door for any reason was considered "suspicious" and reported. One alarming thing, is that NextDoor is feeding on our fears about outsiders who look different, and creating a loop out of this for higher engagement when people post pictures and engage their camera feed.

It's too bad, I think idea of organizing a social network based on proximity and centered around community information is a viable idea, It's just that NextDoor is doing that with our worst instincts.

replies(18): >>heavys+L >>whymau+72 >>glitch+g2 >>mc32+E2 >>notwhe+y4 >>cortes+P4 >>CPLX+P7 >>Baeocy+t8 >>vmcept+F8 >>spaetz+J8 >>hombre+R9 >>bright+ua >>axaxs+Nk >>Taylor+Tm >>Balgai+0n >>duxup+Xu >>ab_tes+Ty >>p2hari+ZU
2. heavys+L[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:01:45
>>wespis+(OP)
This has been my experience, as well. Take this type of echo chamber to its extreme, and you get this[1] kind of reaction from an entire community, where they end up chasing a Hispanic family out of town because someone said they were antifa on Facebook[2].

[1] https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2020/06/fa...

[2] https://twitter.com/RandazzoTweets/status/126860852649191014...

replies(1): >>TheSpi+H5
3. whymau+72[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:15:02
>>wespis+(OP)
We've already seen how these algorithms encourage conflict on Twitter and Facebook. The idea of those paradigms moving to my living community, and by proxy to my real, physical life, is scary.
4. glitch+g2[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:16:23
>>wespis+(OP)
> a social network based on proximity and centered around community information is a viable idea, It's just that NextDoor is doing that with our worst instincts

I have only seen a little bit of NextDoor, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me to be more of how people are deciding to use the platform as opposed to NextDoor purposely promoting our worst instincts. Do you feel like they really are promoting the most inflammatory posts for the purpose of increasing engagement? (like so many of the other major platforms out there)

For me it is sad to see that there are so many people out there too quick to pass judgement on anyone that looks different in their neighborhood. But so far it feels like another example of how web platforms allow people to be more comfortable in expressing their true feelings, and while often disappointing, is a good reminder of the very different views people around us can hold.

replies(2): >>jpinda+06 >>duskwu+58
5. mc32+E2[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:19:26
>>wespis+(OP)
Yeah it’s a double edged sword. On the one hand you know if your neighborhood is getting hit by package thieves, car-break-in’s, etc., on the other hand people walking disheveled in their sweats can get called out.

On the other hand this is a neighborhood app and is used differently in different neighborhoods. Tenderloin vs Nob Hill.

replies(1): >>vmcept+Y8
6. notwhe+y4[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:34:20
>>wespis+(OP)
I’m over in Dorchester and holy crap is our next door a mess
7. cortes+P4[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:36:13
>>wespis+(OP)
Similar experience for me... I joined when our cat was missing so I could post to see if anyone had seen him.... this is in Los Angeles, and I have been pretty shocked by the racism and classism... I feel like 75% of the posts are things like "I saw a black man walking!" and "someone was SLEEPING in a car! Someone needs to call the cops!"

It is crazy how much everyone assumes all these people are out to get them.

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8. TheSpi+H5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:43:20
>>heavys+L
Ok, I read both the links you provided, and it would appear your words:

> reaction from an entire community, where they end up chasing a Hispanic family out of town

Is a drastic overstatement of what happened.

Or did I miss something? Are there really only four vehicles in the entire community of Forks?

replies(1): >>heavys+X7
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9. jpinda+06[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 21:45:52
>>glitch+g2
It's not Nextdoor, it's their neighbors.

My Nextdoor has none of the things people are complaining about. Here, the worst thing is arguments about whether we are taking COVID seriously enough or not, but I suppose that is a natural consequence of discussing which businesses are closed etc.

10. CPLX+P7[view] [source] 2020-06-20 21:59:20
>>wespis+(OP)
I live in downtown Brooklyn and I’ve never seen any issues of this kind, like at all, even once. I think at least some of this has to do with the people in the area in question.
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11. heavys+X7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:00:55
>>TheSpi+H5
You missed something, because it was more than 4 cars. Members of the community followed them in, then others approached them at a store and several hours later a larger group chased them out. Among the people involved are city councilmen, the mayor and his son, and several local business owners. Dozens of people were involved in person, and dozens more online. Armed people were mobilized in not only Forks, WA, but Olympia and Port Townsend based on rumors about the Hispanic family.

For example, when they were stopped at the store, the family is quoted as saying[1]:

> The family had shopped for camping supplies at Forks Outfitters and were confronted “by seven or eight carloads of people in the grocery store parking lot,” Anderson said they reported to deputies.

No one in the community is willing to come forward with the names of the guilty parties, however many of them were okay with spreading violent rumors about out-of-towners, both of which are levels of complicity in my book.

[1] https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/crime/family-harassed-in-...

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12. duskwu+58[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:01:54
>>glitch+g2
> Do you feel like they really are promoting the most inflammatory posts for the purpose of increasing engagement?

I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but posts which foster fear (like "I saw a scary black person walking down the street") will naturally invite more engagement from users, and the site may respond to that by promoting those posts over less controversial content (like "my cat is missing").

13. Baeocy+t8[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:05:19
>>wespis+(OP)
I live in Gilroy, a small town in the bay area. I joined Nextdoor for all of two weeks before I quit in annoyance and frustration.

A typical post:

"OMG Who Is This Suspicious Person!!!"

:: watches video, sees rather bored looking person, driving a UPS truck, wearing a UPS uniform, dropping off a package, then leaving ::

This was 90%+ of what the posts were like. The rest were 'political' screeds so disjointed they were essentially logorrhea. Something about how Nextdoor has shaped their posting methodologies has made even Facebook posts look sane in comparison, and that's saying something.

The added frustration is that real neighborhood watch needs exist. We had some professional thieves roll through our cul-de-sac a few days ago- dozens of people had their cars broken in to, and whatever was in easy reach stolen. The Ring Neighborhood system allowed those of us affected to find who had video of what, and forward it all to the police. That's a real benefit. But it has its own issues.

Social media is a hard problem.

replies(1): >>Ghjklo+Kg
14. vmcept+F8[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:06:35
>>wespis+(OP)
on the other hand, Tenderloin Nextdoor in San Francisco is hilarious

"oh wow drug dealers in the best neighborhood in the city I can't believe it, but really, did you test the product for accuracy? let us know!"

15. spaetz+J8[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:07:21
>>wespis+(OP)
In my neighborhood it's quite OK and useful. For example people are exchanging information about internet slowness so you know it's not only you that has the problem. The reports about suspicious activity usually make sense, like videos of people checking out someone's porch.
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16. vmcept+Y8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:09:39
>>mc32+E2
ha I just posted about Nextdoor Tenderloin. I live in a different neighborhood now and its a totally different community, very welcoming while also generally empathic to the desperate people doing actual illegal things and redirecting the angst from housed neighbors towards more productive empathy.
17. hombre+R9[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:15:25
>>wespis+(OP)
> I think idea of organizing a social network based on proximity and centered around community information is a viable idea

NextDoor and Craigslist and Reddit's /r/{city} communities just prove that it may be viable but it's pretty undesirable. I think it's best to not give the most neurotic, ill people of your community the loudest voice, but these social networks also create this neuroticism and illness.

You also create a scenario (NextDoor especially) where all the sane people are driven out by the crazies. Back when NextDoor was new, after a year it would come up in conversation and sure enough, anyone normal would admit they tried it and had to delete it.

Social media is messing us up. I don't think we're missing some new take on it that's going to make it all better. I think the vestigially tribal parts of our brain make it a non-starter. We need to get back to the face-to-face -- it seems to be the only way we keep in mind that there's a human at the other end of the line, not some nebulous automaton that we craft into everything we hate in the world.

replies(10): >>icelan+Xa >>goatin+Td >>vector+0g >>wespis+nj >>dustin+3m >>jimmas+Ev >>octodo+Bw >>nxpnsv+yF >>mnky98+nU >>esyir+S71
18. bright+ua[view] [source] 2020-06-20 22:19:30
>>wespis+(OP)
In my neighborhood it’s only been lost pets, HOA questions, neighborhood events and a heads up that people were going door to door in a posted “no soliciting” neighborhood. Also “clean up after your dog” posts.

Haven’t seen any suspicious persons type posts, but we did coordinate the entire neighborhood to help the police after people broke into multiple cars in driveways in ours and the adjacent neighborhood.

It’s been mostly good with the occasional spammy business posting.

replies(1): >>MiroF+Xe
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19. icelan+Xa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:22:53
>>hombre+R9
>> I think it's best to not give the most neurotic, ill people of your community the loudest voice.

People say that it's the outliers but the reality is that in many cases, this is the silent majority driving the behavior.

replies(1): >>hombre+yb
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20. hombre+yb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:28:18
>>icelan+Xa
Good point. I actually added a sentence to that to clarify: I think this kind of social media only bolsters and broadly spreads (if not creates) that neuroticism and illness.

Frankly I just don't think we can handle social media. We're trying to do this whole technological civilization thing and we've made progress that is absolutely mind bending, but it wasn't long ago that we were using fur and bones and would only meet 100 people our entire life. And our brains are still there mentally, lagging behind the rest of our progress.

replies(1): >>CraigJ+Yi
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21. goatin+Td[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:49:53
>>hombre+R9
I think it's best to not give the most neurotic, ill people of your community the loudest voice, but these social networks also create this neuroticism and illness.

You’ve just described Twitter perfectly.

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22. MiroF+Xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 22:59:22
>>bright+ua
> we did coordinate the entire neighborhood to help the police

how did this work?

also sounds like a pretty suburban place maybe?

replies(1): >>bright+yo
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23. vector+0g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:10:34
>>hombre+R9
People behaving badly doesn't always imply they have mental illness. In my experience people with and without mental illness can be quick to be suspicious of others, hold prejudices, and involve law enforcement in the face of people just trying to go about their lives

I agree that the behavior being capitalized on here is pathological but using the terms "neuroticism", "illness", and "crazies" here unfairly and wrongly stigmatizes people with mental illness when in practice people with mental illness are more likely to be harmed by these suspicious posts and behavior nextdoor had been encouraging

replies(4): >>heavys+Uh >>threat+un >>wpietr+iA >>numpad+JM
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24. Ghjklo+Kg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:17:29
>>Baeocy+t8
One human is complex already. People, groups of humans are even more problematic. Social media is a hard problem because people are hard to get a handle on. And I think that's good. People should be allowed to be skeptical, to have anxieties, and to be able to look out for the interests of their people/community. Just because one Karen saw a suspicious person and wanted to let all her neighbors know to be careful doesn't mean Nextdoor/social media is bad. People looking out for each other is a good thing! You see that all the time in high trust societies where you could even safely leave a bike unattended for a few minutes without fearing that it'll be stolen.

Don't get me wrong though. Nextdoor's program to forward suspicions to the police is the wrong play. No one should be arrested and put at harm's way just because someone was a bit anxious one day.

I just think that we should be nurturing a high trust society, rather than moving to a low trust one where, on the surface everyone is tolerant/accepting but in reality they aren't really thinking about the other people in their community at all. "Not my problem." "Oh no, I can't let myself be bigoted. Who am I to judge the masked man walking around with a chainsaw at midnight? He might just be headed out to trim his garden?"

replies(1): >>maveli+ur
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25. heavys+Uh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:28:45
>>vector+0g
I agree with your analysis. It's better to not think of such behavior as a result of a real illness of the mind, but a metaphorical illness of the heart. There's a certain sickness element to it, as well as an element of social contagion, so I understand the words used, but disagree with how they were used.
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26. CraigJ+Yi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:43:41
>>hombre+yb
IRC, Slashdot, niche communities hosted on phpnuke instances, free/open source software. The early 2000s convinced me the power of sharing knowledge freely online would solve many of society’s problems.

I still can’t reconcile just how wildly wrong i was. I didn’t appreciate that it’s not common to want to know truth, common is titillation and tribalism - which always existed anyway, it’s not that the internet increased it or made it more popular, it’s that i was a geek hacking away in my bedroom and didn’t see much of real society.

Although my biggest hangup contrasting then vs now is that Microsoft is my favourite tech company these days.

replies(1): >>icelan+Ur
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27. wespis+nj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-20 23:48:58
>>hombre+R9
> Social media is messing us up. I don't think we're missing some new take on it that's going to make it all better.

This is a fair point, and one I think is very important to consider. When I wrote the original quote, I was not thinking of another facebook, but rather a platform that would work on issues like providing access to local government meetings, and probably be closer to what we now think of as "journalism". Which the lack of is a major problem in many parts of the country due to the declining newspaper industry.

Small towns and rural America is in trouble, and although it's naive to say there are simple solutions, I am optimistic that it is possible for technology to solve some problems.

28. axaxs+Nk[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:03:27
>>wespis+(OP)
Well, unless it's changed, the big problem is that it seems the first person to sign up is the moderator/leader/whatever. And those are the people with nothing better to do, who subdivide to gain power over some amount of houses. Basically, like the people who try to form HOAs. Most complaints about Nextdoor would be fixed with reasonable moderation.

Also: I think a lot of people who complain about Nextdoor need to reflect on where they chose to live. My little city in KY was perfectly fine. People offering help, lost/found animals, events...standard stuff.

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29. dustin+3m[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:18:38
>>hombre+R9
We'll be better at social in 20 years it just takes some practice ... like not smoking cigs ... social is really important, it's letting the people unionize against the state
30. Taylor+Tm[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:31:22
>>wespis+(OP)
My understanding is that for this to work everyone has to get in the same room periodically and talk.
31. Balgai+0n[view] [source] 2020-06-21 00:33:25
>>wespis+(OP)
For a larger snapshot ND, the BestOfNextDoor twitter account is solid gold : https://twitter.com/bestofnextdoor

The oft-repeated quote of "ND is just Tinder for old racists" makes it sound so lovely.

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32. threat+un[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:38:35
>>vector+0g
Neuroticism is an ordinary and healthy part of human expression, although high neuroticism is generally associated with poor life outcomes.
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33. bright+yo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 00:54:22
>>MiroF+Xe
People providing reports and sharing home and neighborhood cameras. Just making everyone aware of what happened resulted in people providing a bunch of additional footage.

It’s a neighborhood in a suburb of upstate SC.

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34. maveli+ur[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:28:02
>>Ghjklo+Kg
> Don't get me wrong though. Nextdoor's program to forward suspicions to the police is the wrong play. No one should be arrested and put at harm's way just because someone was a bit anxious one day.

Another problem is that such means of inflicting harm on people exist for Nextdoor and it's users.

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35. icelan+Ur[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 01:32:13
>>CraigJ+Yi
>> I still can’t reconcile just how wildly wrong i was.

You weren't wrong. Sharing knowledge freely absolutely solved many of society's problems.

It uh... created a few more too...

Wouldn't be so hard on your past self.

36. duxup+Xu[view] [source] 2020-06-21 02:08:45
>>wespis+(OP)
What I find interesting is the type of fear that goes around.

Almost all the fear type nextdoor posts in the areas I've lived in have involved animals and not humans.

Fox, random dog, raccoons and the extremely unlikely but reported none the less....bear sightings.

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37. jimmas+Ev[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 02:18:05
>>hombre+R9
NextDoor has been good for me. There are some dumb posts but whatever, lots of useful stuff too.
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38. octodo+Bw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 02:29:42
>>hombre+R9
As a counterpoint, I am apart of a "Good Karma Network" Facebook group centred on the suburb I live in and it is extremely wholesome and pleasant. The posts range from re-homing old furniture, organising exercise groups, posting local PSAs, to recommending dishes at local cafes and restaurants.

There is never any conflict that I can tell of and there certainly aren't dubious posts about "suspicious" characters.

replies(1): >>int_19+kP
39. ab_tes+Ty[view] [source] 2020-06-21 03:00:09
>>wespis+(OP)
I see that you are blaming nextdoor, when nextdoor is just a symptom. The actual issue is that these people are paranoid and scared and marking anything as suspicous. If not for nextdoor, it will be some other app - but the issue will stay the same.
replies(1): >>wespis+XA
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40. wpietr+iA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:20:43
>>vector+0g
Yes, exactly. There's a fantastically good book about domestic abuse, "Why Does He Do That?" In it, he takes great pains to make clear that abusers are not abusers because they're mentally ill. They do it because they get something out of it. Exactly what varies from person to person, of course. It's the same with a lot of anti-social behavior.
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41. wespis+XA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 03:29:16
>>ab_tes+Ty
> I see that you are blaming nextdoor, when nextdoor is just a symptom.

I am trying to share my observation, and express my disappointment that a company has created a skinner-box engagement loop based on fear and neuroticism. People will always be afraid, but technology should be used to bring out the best qualities in humans, not amplify the worst.

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42. nxpnsv+yF[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 04:39:54
>>hombre+R9
I’ve found the r/city subs i’ve been in has been great. Perhaps depends where you live...
replies(1): >>CoolGu+nL
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43. CoolGu+nL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 05:53:03
>>nxpnsv+yF
It seems like since the last presidential election, /r/nyc has been getting brigaded by conservatives who don't live in the area.

Lately some these guys have a post history in /r/Seattle too, talking about CHAZ or whatever.

It's obnoxious, there's enough going on locally in NYC without a bunch of racists jumping in to defend stop and frisk or whatever.

replies(2): >>nxpnsv+zL >>m741+M01
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44. nxpnsv+zL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 05:56:36
>>CoolGu+nL
Yeah well I’m only on European subs...
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45. numpad+JM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 06:18:32
>>vector+0g
I think there’s no disjoint between being “normal/typical/healthy” and “mental/ill/bad” but our perception/modeling/worldview requires Boolean distinction(and preferably not ternary in which case a cascaded Boolean substitutes it)
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46. int_19+kP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 07:07:27
>>octodo+Bw
Would the moderators allow such a post to remain up, if somebody were to post one?
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47. mnky98+nU[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 08:40:04
>>hombre+R9
I don't think the /r/cities is comparable to nextdoor. In the last nextdoor community I was in people were ready to lynch a guy who was schizophrenic because they decided he was dangerous. They started a pedophile manhunt for an old man who was literally looking for his lost dog. The /r/cities all seem to be removed enough from the immediate local that they didn't feed this sort of vitriol. But I suppose ymmv.
48. p2hari+ZU[view] [source] 2020-06-21 08:50:17
>>wespis+(OP)
> I think idea of organizing a social network based on proximity and centered around community information is a viable idea

Shameless plug: We are exactly working on this and want to bring better community information app without other distractions. Currently only in Denmark.Will be updating the details soon.

However, I agree that the way NextDoor is handling community interactions is really disturbing.

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49. m741+M01[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 10:17:01
>>CoolGu+nL
I subscribe to both those subs, and the signal:noise ratio is very bad. It's pretty obvious that there's a substantial amount of posts from people who have neither lived in nor traveled to these cities. I was visiting both subs regularly until I realized that they just made me anxious and depressed. Posts are frequently just signal boosts of lurid local news about rape/arson/homelessness/etc.

It's not something you see in subreddits for smaller or less popular cities with similar demographics. Subreddits for these tend to be actually useful.

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50. esyir+S71[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-21 12:05:30
>>hombre+R9
Doesn't really seem to work now. Social media turned tribal instincts can readily be turned on "real in person people".
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