zlacker

No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

>>Grusta+(OP)
I think it's frustrating that people make claims to ideas that they are vaguely aware about. The vagueness can lead to repeating incorrect claims which I think is harmful, especially when discussing sensitive topics.

> Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent

You're using hyperbole but yes it's commonly understood that there's a link between testosterone and aggression, however you extend that claim to something completely different

> why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

I counter that this second claim is related to the first, is it that testosterone makes young males more likely to play with mechanical objects? There are a few articles that reference this study from 2008 [1]. It refers to rhesus monkeys not chimpanzees and their hypothesis at the end is much more nuanced

>We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.

Furthermore there is at least 1 meta-analysis from 2017 [2] that highlights

> Gender differences in toy choice exist and appear to be the product of both innate and social forces. > Despite methodological variation in the choice and number of toys offered, context of testing, and age of child, the consistency in finding sex differences in children's preferences for toys typed

Note they do not make the claim that testosterone is the cause of these differences. Scientists try to be careful about the language they use, we should be just as careful.

1: Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of children - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008

2: Sex differences in children's toy preferences: A systematic review, meta‐regression, and meta‐analysis - https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064

>>Grusta+(OP)
> No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years.

You haven't been exposed to a very broad range of parents. I've seen parents who very tightly control which toys, clothes, and grooming choices their kids make because they don't align with the parent's gender expectations. It's frustratingly common in the US.

>>Grusta+(OP)
Is it conceivable that men and women have different average personal preferences [partly] for reasons which are linked to biology? Certainly, though nobody in this thread has suggested that can't be a factor.

Is it plausible to assume that STEM fields and female participation is a case where stereotypes have very little effect? I think I'd need some pretty strong evidence for the idea stereotypes had little effect on any kind of career choice. Even less so for fields where any mention of stereotypes and gender imbalance garners a furious insistence that the stereotype is [i] irrelevant to anyone's advice or decision making [ii] also such an accurate representation of biologically-driven preferences it would be unfair for the gender ratio to change

>>golf10+P7
So you agree that gender has direct (hormonal) influence on toy selection?

Specifically to quote your post: "toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and..."

>>golf10+P7
I’m not saying anything about the cause, just positing that since there are known biological differences that are extremely significant, such as when it comes to aggression, it seems strange to categorically rule out the possibility of a much milder difference in preferences when it comes to fields of study or work.

>>notaha+Ki
Linking the notion of men and women to biology is a risky proposition nowadays.

>>notaha+Ki
Perhaps nobody said it explicitly, but when you see a difference in outcome, computer scientists are mostly men for example, and draw the conclusion that there must be discrimination and stereotyping then you indirectly say that it can’t be due to difference in preferences.

Also, I would think that the person that claims discrimination would have the burden of proof.

>>Pfhrea+Mg
Well I only had one set of parents myself that is true. But do you actually think that the reason 9 out of 10 computer scientists are men is that almost all parents tell their daughters to stay away from STEM fields? How does that tally with the female representation in medicine and biology?

>>DenisM+Vo
I prefer the later meta-analysis which looked at studies on humans which says

>Gender differences in toy choice exist and appear to be the product of both innate and social forces.

Gender seems to make some sort of difference but social factors also seem to make a difference. There is no claim to which is stronger, just that there is a difference. Taking this a step further I hypothesize that social forces could be enough to meaningfully change the gender difference.

>>Grusta+lx
Google's published tech stats suggest the ratio is closer to 7 in 10. Women physicians are 3-4 in 10. Biology appears to be 6 in 10 from what I could find (and is relatively unique in STEM fields, also not out of line with the socialization that animals/horses/veterinarians/marine biologists are often socialized as girls vocations).

And yeah, I think it's a potential contributing factor (one of many). Kids in many parts of the country are socialized that certain things are only for certain genders. It sucks. Let kids like whatever they want.

>>Grusta+zw
> Perhaps nobody said it explicitly, but when you see a difference in outcome, computer scientists are mostly men for example, and draw the conclusion that there must be discrimination and stereotyping then you indirectly say that it can’t be due to difference in preferences.

Well yes, if stereotypes or discrimination play any role it at all in career selection, it rules out the possibility that the highly variable ratio of male to female computer scientists is determined solely by biology. This strikes me as a much stronger claim requiring much stronger proof than a statement to the effect that [the well-established existence of] stereotypes is amongst the driving factors in career selection; particularly given that the ratio of male to female computer scientists varies hugely by place and time in ways which would be very difficult to attribute solely to biology.

>>notaha+1l1
If stereotypes were a major factor wouldn’t progressive countries like Sweden have more female physicists and programmers than a traditionalist gender role stronghold like Russia? In reality it’s the opposite.

>>Grusta+zx1
Unless one believes that stereotypes are entirely absent from or irrelevant in progressive countries, not necessarily. It's well established that females in Russia view STEM more positively [not just other possibly more-chauvinist-in-Russia professions more negatively] than in many other countries.

Since it's palpably absurd to attribute this to differences between Russian and other European female biology, I think you've just refuted the argument that biology is likely to be the sole factor determining career choices. Given that we have just proven that cultural attitudes do shape career choices to some extent, perhaps they are even partly influenced by some people's insistence that the only actually problematic attitude towards female participation in their field is considering women equally likely to be suited to the job?

>>notaha+MK1
In Russia and poorer countries the lifestyle of a woman working as a nurse or teacher is radically different from one working as an engineer. In Scandinavia the difference is very small, you'll send your kids to the same schools, the same universities, you have the same medical care anyway, so you can afford to work with something you enjoy.

I don't really understand your logic. The biology is the same in both places, but we can all agree that Sweden is 100 times more progressive. Even if you claim there are still stereotyping here, their effect would be much much smaller. How can that be reconciled with the much larger disparities we see in Sweden?