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1. umvi+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-15 16:59:41
Suppose that I'm highly religious:

1. I make tools (wedding planning software)

2. I believe (in an informed way) that a group intends to act immorally (use my tools to plan a gay wedding)

3. My tools will make the group more effective at acting immorally

Do I have any responsibility for what happens?

Or (alternatively):

1. I make tools (highly specialized chemicals)

2. I believe (in an informed way) that a group intends to act immorally (use my chemicals to improve abortions)

3. My tools will make the group more effective at acting immorally

Do I have any responsibility for what happens?

=====

IMO, it's better not to attempt to be morality police. Focus on making great tools.

replies(3): >>joshua+F >>flambl+da >>cco+zx
2. joshua+F[view] [source] 2020-06-15 17:02:28
>>umvi+(OP)
Lot's of people seem to think so. Masterpiece Cake shop was a supreme court decision around, essentially, that question, that upheld the right for the private entity to discriminate.

So yes I think everyone would agree you have some responsibility (otherwise no one would care about the outcome of the case, why request the right to discriminate if you don't feel that you have any responsibility for the resulting acts?)

replies(1): >>Fellsh+R2
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3. Fellsh+R2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:11:01
>>joshua+F
It was more specific than that: a cake shop participates directly in the creative effort with the client in the way a software service provider does not.
replies(2): >>rhacke+De >>joshua+ff
4. flambl+da[view] [source] 2020-06-15 17:37:52
>>umvi+(OP)
In both cases, you very clearly have some responsibility. In an incredibly straightforward and unambiguous way.

I'm struggling to see how this is intended as a counterexample. Is it because disapproving of homosexuality is wrong? That doesn't at all change the entailment of responsibility by the conjunction of foreknowledge of consequences with uncoerced action.

If you walk out into a public street and fire a pistol around you randomly, you are clearly responsible for any death or injuries thereby caused (given that you were aware of the likely outcomes), even if it is through negligence or indifference rather than deliberate intent.

replies(1): >>umvi+Nb
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5. umvi+Nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:44:07
>>flambl+da
Well, I disagree. I have more of a "live and let live" or "golden rule" type philosophy. I wouldn't want someone denying me service because they disagree with my beliefs (and by extension, actions), so I don't deny service to people who have beliefs (and by extension, actions) I disagree with.
replies(3): >>karpie+Kd >>kuyan+Nf >>jlokie+Bk
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6. karpie+Kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:52:16
>>umvi+Nb
Would you sell a man a gun if they told you:

"hey, if you sell this to me, I'm going to go shoot that black kid outside", and then showed you a few videos of them doing this before?

replies(1): >>umvi+Ge
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7. rhacke+De[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:56:29
>>Fellsh+R2
If the client is large enough, it does. Same as with a cake shop. Someone buying a slice of cake doesn't participate as someone asking for the design of a cake at a much higher cost.
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8. umvi+Ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:56:52
>>karpie+Kd
Well in this case since they showed me video evidence of murder, I would call the police (assuming I don't live in a CHAZ zone).

This is bogus though. Will Home Depot allow me to buy some rope if I declare to a random employee that I plan on using it to do a lynching on my local colored neighbors? Yes, they will. Does that make Home Depot an immoral organization? Nope.

replies(2): >>joshua+xf >>karpie+eg
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9. joshua+ff[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:58:09
>>Fellsh+R2
Software service providers certainly do implement features requested directly by clients.
replies(2): >>Fellsh+Mv >>therea+j31
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10. joshua+xf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:59:13
>>umvi+Ge
> if I declare to a random employee that I plan on using it to do a lynching on my local colored neighbors? Yes, they will. Does that make Home Depot an immoral organization? Nope.

I'd hope (and expect!) that home depot employees would ask you to leave if you made those statements while trying to purchase rope.

replies(1): >>umvi+Zh
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11. kuyan+Nf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 17:59:41
>>umvi+Nb
Sure, I wouldn't want anyone denying me service because they disagree with how I dress or other actions that are otherwise harmless. That being said, there is an incredibly wide divide between "I casually disapprove of your actions, but I will serve you anyway" and "your actions serve to strategically terrorize, harm, and silence minorities and those without the ability to effectively defend or represent themselves, and I will serve you anyway despite knowing that my service will strengthen your ability to do so."
replies(1): >>waterh+lS
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12. karpie+eg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:01:05
>>umvi+Ge
You've avoided the question. Suppose that they'd already been on trial for it, found guilty and served their time. Do you sell them the gun, knowing that they intend to use it for violence?

If you showed Home Depot sufficient evidence that you intended to lynch someone with it, and it was Home Depot's policy that we sell rope even if it's used for murder, then yes. I think the issue in your example is that you haven't made the corporate policy clear and you haven't made it clear that the employee is convinced of what you're about to do.

replies(1): >>umvi+Jj
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13. umvi+Zh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:07:14
>>joshua+xf
They might, but I doubt it. Especially if I made the comments in jest. "What's all that rope for?" "A lynching wink"

Home Depot (the company) will not make any effort to ban me from using their chain even if an employee did make me leave the premises. I could just go home and order it online from HomeDepot.com and have it shipped right to me.

replies(1): >>joshua+cj
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14. joshua+cj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:12:59
>>umvi+Zh
You're sort of moving the goalposts here: when/if you have knowledge that someone is going to do something immoral, there may be an expectation to avoid supporting it. If you can't reasonably have been assumed to have knowledge of the bad thing, then there can't be an expectation to have done anything different, because you couldn't have known.

So, much as after you kick someone out of your store they could order on the home depot website, they could also just go to Lowe's and say nothing. Neither company is really to blame in that case. On the other hand, I wouldn't say that you shouldn't escalate to law enforcement if someone is threatening to go lynch someone in your presence.

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15. umvi+Jj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:15:31
>>karpie+eg
Your examples are extremely contrived.

> Suppose that they'd already been on trial for it, found guilty and served their time

Ok, so I'm supposing a convicted felon is trying to purchase a gun, which is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1).

> Do you sell them the gun, knowing that they intend to use it for violence?

No, I do not sell them the gun, because it would be illegal to do so.

===

Bottom line, I believe in "innocent until proven guilty." I don't deny services or tools to someone legally able to purchase it because I think they might use it to commit a future crime. I might report them to authorities if my suspicions are backed by evidence, but it's not my job to prevent future crimes. If I work at a glass blowing shop and someone wants me to create a custom bong for them, I wouldn't deny them because they might use it to smoke illegal drugs. Who knows, they might be scientists that need it to conduct a study.

replies(2): >>joshua+Wl >>karpie+Qm
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16. jlokie+Bk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:19:10
>>umvi+Nb
"Live and let live" and "golden rule" are great philosophies to live by.

But you still have responsibility when you assist others in doing things, whether you agree or disagree with those things.

Otherwise you are ignoring the "let live" part of your own philosophy.

For example, someone comes to you asking for your services to help them kill a third person.

If you believe in the "let live" part of your philosophy, you cannot assist in depriving someone of life in that way.

Same applies to the golden rule. It's easy to say you don't want to be denied assistance from others, so you won't deny it to them. But that's the easy scenario. Consider, when Alice is asked by Bob to help damage you, do you think the golden rule tells Alice to deprive you of life and liberty? I don't think it does.

replies(2): >>umvi+8o >>afiori+d31
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17. joshua+Wl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:24:09
>>umvi+Jj
Why are you equivocating smoking and lynching?
replies(1): >>umvi+Om
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18. umvi+Om[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:27:40
>>joshua+Wl
I'm not, I'm just generalizing the stance to whether people have a responsibility of "preventing future crimes" when considering whether to offer services to clientele.
replies(1): >>joshua+vn
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19. karpie+Qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:27:51
>>umvi+Jj
Again, you're avoiding the question; it's a moral question, not a legal one. Yes, it's illegal. But that doesn't mean it's unethical.

I'm asking if it's unethical to sell someone a gun if you're convinced they're going to do something you believe to be unethical with it. I would say yes. I'm not sure if you would say, "no, it doesn't matter if I know they're going to kill children with it", "maybe, if I only think they're going to kill animals with it", or "yes, I don't think I should sell them the gun if I know they're going to do something I don't approve of with it".

To your second point, we're not talking about "maybe they're going to do something bad", we're saying "here's plenty of documentation that they're going to do something bad".

replies(1): >>umvi+5r
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20. joshua+vn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:32:00
>>umvi+Om
You are though. You seem to be claiming that in general there is no moral imperative to try and prevent any crime. But that misses the point that the harm from some crimes is greater than others, and that there may be a moral imperative from preventing potential quantities of harm, irrespective of whether or not something is criminal.
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21. umvi+8o[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:35:01
>>jlokie+Bk
You are over-complicating it. Evil people might use my software on GitHub to help kill people. I'm okay with that. I'm not going to try to prevent it; it's impossible. Their blood is not on my hands any more than the blood of Nice France victims is on the truck company's hands.
replies(1): >>jlokie+4N
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22. umvi+5r[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 18:48:46
>>karpie+Qm
If they are legally allowed to buy it, I would sell it to them but put a waiting period on it ("yep, you own it now. You can pick it up in 5 days"). During the waiting period, if I thought they were going to use it to commit a heinous crime, I would contact the FBI and provide them with all of the buyer's details.

I don't like this contrived example though, and I suspect you've only set it up so that if/when I say "nope, I won't sell the gun to that person" you'll then say "in this case the gun is GitHub and the felon trying to buy it is ICE" which I do not think is an apt analogy at all.

replies(1): >>karpie+Pv
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23. Fellsh+Mv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 19:10:03
>>joshua+ff
Features, yes. Are those features directly connected to those clients' work, or is it a more general feature that has to do with the execution of the service?

I will agree that it's dubious that that nuance is reflected in the rulings on the Masterpiece case. I'm trying to follow the same lines set there, though, in my argumentation.

replies(1): >>joshua+0x
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24. karpie+Pv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 19:10:11
>>umvi+5r
Would you put anyone on a waiting period, or only people who were violent?

And would you have the same answer if you believed that law enforcement wouldn't do anything to stop the buyer from doing anything?

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25. joshua+0x[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 19:14:51
>>Fellsh+Mv
> Are those features directly connected to those clients' work

How can they not be?

replies(1): >>Fellsh+5D
26. cco+zx[view] [source] 2020-06-15 19:17:54
>>umvi+(OP)
Sure, but in those two examples the behavior isn't actually immoral, so the work of those companies doesn't increase immoral behavior at all. They can rest easy that gay people will marry with more efficiency and no increase in immoral behavior occurred.
replies(1): >>astine+cz
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27. astine+cz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 19:27:14
>>cco+zx
This line of reasoning begs the question. Yes, according to your moral framework, one is actually immoral and the other isn't, but living in a pluralist society requires leaving room for people to have and live by very different moral frameworks. There isn't a universally acknowledged objective standard of morality by which we can judge all actions and beliefs in a society so we need to structure the rule by which we settle moral disputes in a way that doesn't create moral hazard down the line.
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28. Fellsh+5D[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 19:47:55
>>joshua+0x
Let me rephrase to see if it answers your question:

Would the added features be useful in another context? Would they be useful regardless of the type of work being done? Are they merely enhancements of the platform, or are they specifically tailored to the client's domain?

replies(1): >>joshua+aQ
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29. jlokie+4N[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 20:43:11
>>umvi+8o
I think it's obvious that the scope here is "things you are aware of (or could choose to be) and are within your control".
replies(1): >>LunaSe+xz2
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30. joshua+aQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 21:01:12
>>Fellsh+5D
FWIW, in my work I've seen both. But I'm sort of asking things at a higher level. If a client is asking you to prioritize a generic enhancement over others, they are presumably doing so because they believe that generic enhancement will have the greatest value to their work.

So if ICE asks github to prioritize better native CI support for Windows, or something, they're doing it because it is of maximum benefit to ICE.

replies(1): >>afiori+Q21
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31. waterh+lS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 21:15:44
>>kuyan+Nf
People who oppose abortions (at least the vocal ones) don't "casually disapprove" of abortions. Some of them call it baby-murder. They could add that it harms and silences babies and those without the ability to effectively defend or represent themselves.

The CCP's position seems to be that anything vaguely resembling disrespect of the CCP or their leader will lead to revolution, and therefore must be suppressed with whatever means necessary.

It's generally possible for people to see small, seemingly-harmless, and sometimes-unintentional actions as being part of / enabling / normalizing some terrible threat, which must therefore be burned down, and anyone who opposes such burning must themselves be burned too. I think this happened with the Inquisitions, for example.

It doesn't solve the issue to say "the different political factions will judge for themselves which infractions against their beliefs are harmless". People are very capable of inflaming their own political passions to cast any issue as being the first step towards the end of the world. It only works if there is some common, overarching framework that the different factions agree on. If the common foundation is democracy, then I think that framework would probably be "that which the law allows is permissible; peacefully advocating your policies is permissible; if you think the law is wrong, advocate to change the law". Civil disobedience is a step outside that framework, but (by design) one of the most harmless.

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32. afiori+Q21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 22:16:01
>>joshua+aQ
It is still debatable how much this has to do with the matter at hand. It is completely possible that github only utility is to process applications faster so that people will stay detained for shorter times. Or that it serves a completely unrelated purpose that has no influence on the issue.
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33. afiori+d31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 22:18:09
>>jlokie+Bk
> But you still have responsibility when you assist others in doing things, whether you agree or disagree with those things.

Another responsibility that is not given enough weight is the maintenance of a civil non-polarized society.

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34. therea+j31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 22:18:24
>>joshua+ff
This seems like a difference between like Palantir working on specific projects for ICE (I made this up) vs Github providing a platform that ICE uses.

IMO the former is more objectionable than the latter.

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35. LunaSe+xz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-16 14:34:27
>>jlokie+4N
If customers would be anonymous, would you mind if ICE used GitHub since nobody at GitHub would be aware of it?

If GitHub were to go through with it, that would make for an interesting middle-man company business model.

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