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1. leetcr+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-15 14:25:33
I wouldn't necessarily say that DUI is a victimless crime. you might not hurt anyone, but you've exposed everyone on the road to excess risk, which could be argued is a type of harm. I'm not sure jail time is necessary for DUI. having your license suspended is already a severe punishment in places where you really need a vehicle to get around. requiring an interlock whenever the person is allowed to drive again also mitigates the risk to others in the future. of course, then you would have to decide what to do with people who just drive a friend's car or drive on a suspended license...

I think this might be a good example of a larger structural problem. culturally, we accept that going to a bar with friends or having a few glasses of wine at a restaurant is a reasonable thing for an adult to do. but a large portion of the US is set up in a way that bars and restaurants are not within walking distance of homes, and the public transit is poor or nonexistent. if I, a 145 lb male, have a cocktail and a glass of wine at dinner, I'm pretty likely to be above the legal limit by the time I leave. I don't do this; I either drink less or arrange a different way to get home, but I do think the combination of law, culture, and (lack of) infrastructure pushes people towards committing a crime here.

replies(2): >>AlexTW+x2 >>cies+cM1
2. AlexTW+x2[view] [source] 2020-06-15 14:41:29
>>leetcr+(OP)
Well, here we step on a slippery slope of defining a "victimless" crime.

Many illegal drugs have a potential of causing harm.

Should the harm be purely physical?

Homelessness is a public nuisance, which we can choose to ignore, but so is walking naked in a school yard, which will be seen as a much more controversial subject.

replies(2): >>leetcr+48 >>freefl+Qf
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3. leetcr+48[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:15:49
>>AlexTW+x2
tbh, I'm in favor of treating DUI more as a liability thing (ie, automatic fault in the case of an accident and multiplied damages) rather than a crime itself, but that's a pretty controversial position that I didn't want to bring into the debate. plus it has its own issues; liability is not much of a deterrent for someone with minimal assets and/or income.
replies(1): >>AlexTW+x9
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4. AlexTW+x9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:23:04
>>leetcr+48
Making DUI a liability thing is such a simple, clean and straightforward thing to do that I wish it worked.

But: - for it to work people should estimate the risks correctly - most people caught DUIing apparently are quite bad in understanding the risks involved

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5. freefl+Qf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 15:45:49
>>AlexTW+x2
> Many illegal drugs have a potential of causing harm.

To the user, which is a risk they chose to take.

Now you could argue that the illicit trade is causing harm, but that's the direct result of criminalization and not of people choosing to consume substances.

replies(2): >>fongit+Or >>cies+NM1
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6. fongit+Or[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-15 16:43:11
>>freefl+Qf
sure illegal drugs only affect users. and the user affected by illegal drugs don't loose any notion of right/wrong and can harm other people
7. cies+cM1[view] [source] 2020-06-16 00:01:23
>>leetcr+(OP)
I agree that DUIs and speeding are not victimless and should be punishable, to deter that behavior. It is also well studied to be "risk inducing" and "fixes with fines".

Drugs, prostitution and being homeless (a.k.a. being poor/ in need of support). Should never've been even considered for crimes. Hence I proposed to have those laws made unconstitutional by some amendment.

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8. cies+NM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-16 00:05:12
>>freefl+Qf
Totally agree. Making victimless behavior to be crimes creates the trade wars. Those laws cause so much harm on society, they are also the reason a significant group is locked up (especially when counting violence resulting from trade as well).
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