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1. mcv+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-12 14:56:03
Wasn't it the police who abandoned this area in the first place?

The impression I'm getting from this and other events from the past weeks is that the police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos, but in practice, US police turns out to be a major source of chaos, and without them things often turn much more peaceful.

I'm not saying there should be no police at all, but that police should work with the community, instead of trying to dominate it.

replies(4): >>_-davi+36 >>zozbot+H9 >>ogre_c+2j >>omnisc+kC2
2. _-davi+36[view] [source] 2020-06-12 15:28:49
>>mcv+(OP)
The police left because they were told to leave not because they wanted to leave.
replies(1): >>loeg+rz
3. zozbot+H9[view] [source] 2020-06-12 15:51:52
>>mcv+(OP)
The whole area is only a few blocks. A society on that scale can be peaceful even without any organized police presence, but we knew that already: just look at how any small town or village is run. The problem with larger neighborhoods and cities is that often there is no real sense of community to speak of, so nothing for police to "work with" in the first place.
replies(1): >>mcv+Ma
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4. mcv+Ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 15:58:44
>>zozbot+H9
Maybe there's a valuable lesson in that too: foster a sense of community, instead of trying to control people by force.

My impression is also that many cases of police abuse in the US happen in situations where most of the police officers policing a community are not themselves members of that community, but outsiders looking down on that community.

replies(1): >>zozbot+qd
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5. zozbot+qd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 16:14:09
>>mcv+Ma
> foster a sense of community, instead of trying to control people by force.

The institutions that are most effective at "fostering a sense of community" are voluntary ones like churches and cultural centres, not coercive ones like police. Social scientists have known for a long time about the critical importance of this sort of civic and community engagement, but it is often misunderstood and considered irrelevant at a political level, especially by more liberal or radical sorts of politics which often advocate for a mixture of extreme social individualism and a radical redefinition of social groups-- generally emphasizing a simplistic view of power relations over a broader sense of community.

replies(2): >>xyzzyz+nx >>mcv+GQ
6. ogre_c+2j[view] [source] 2020-06-12 16:43:57
>>mcv+(OP)
> police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos

The police benefit from chaos during these protests, I'm sure the temptation to foster chaos and destruction is quite high for them right now. It puts the protesters in a bad light and reinforces the idea that police are needed.

There are multiple cases where police have been observed contributing to the chaos or just idling around while it happened nearby. Definitely not universal, but some departments are doing the opposite of their job.

replies(1): >>TheGri+zm
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7. TheGri+zm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:01:24
>>ogre_c+2j
You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here.

Any time the police are pushed to the point where they use force on the protestors, mass media is then awash with out of context clips of the event, claiming police brutality, drumming up more support for the protestors and their cause. The more chaos, the better it is for the protester's message.

There's lots of peaceful protests every year that don't end in the police using force. In fact, the vast majority of them, before this. These protestors benefit politically if the police use force. So what's the difference here, why do these "protests" result in use of force? It's blatantly obvious to me ..

replies(3): >>ogre_c+rp >>noobac+up >>darker+sq
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8. ogre_c+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:15:48
>>TheGri+zm
> You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here.

I don't see how your point is relevant here.

Protestors aren't paid with tax dollars.

Cops are getting paid massive amounts of overtime to prevent looting and damage during this crisis and instead they are contributing to it.

replies(1): >>SpicyL+zq
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9. noobac+up[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:15:55
>>TheGri+zm
Nah people who get hurt don’t benefit. One side is organized like a military with command stations and ranks like captain and lieutenant, while the other is just people marching because they feel like it.
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10. darker+sq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:21:23
>>TheGri+zm
Because they are protests against the police, and the police don't like that? Simplest answer I can see
replies(1): >>krzyk+LB
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11. SpicyL+zq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 17:21:58
>>ogre_c+rp
From the mayor's public statements, it's clear that there's political pressure to not intervene - it doesn't seem to be solely a police decision.
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12. xyzzyz+nx[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:04:29
>>zozbot+qd
which often advocate for a mixture of extreme social individualism and a radical redefinition of social groups

Additionally, they advocate mixing together people who have little in common, to obtain diversity. That's not conducive to sense of community either, as Robert Putnam's research showed[1].

[1] - https://www.puttingourdifferencestowork.com/pdf/j.1467-9477....

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13. loeg+rz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:15:55
>>_-davi+36
It is really not clear at this time why they left. Chief Best claims she did not order police to leave. SPD's organizational structure is such that the police report only to the police chief. However, it was clearly organized — police brought in a rented commercial truck and removed some belongings, and boarded up the outside.
replies(1): >>downer+GH
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14. krzyk+LB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:29:13
>>darker+sq
Use of force by police in those protests results in more protests.

So the simplest answer is actually: protesters benefit from police using force. (because they'll get more protesters, more media coverage etc.)

replies(3): >>ogre_c+SD >>mcv+IP >>darker+So2
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15. ogre_c+SD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 18:42:03
>>krzyk+LB
> So the simplest answer is actually: protesters benefit from police using force.

I'm struggling to see the equivalency here. In one case you have cops, getting paid to protect people and property and ignoring that responsibility (or actually participating in mayhem) at no cost to themselves. Lots of incentive to act poorly, little personal consequence.

On the other hand you have protestors who might collectively benefit from police using force at the cost of taking a club to the head or pepper spray to the face.

Not seeing how the two are comparable.

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16. downer+GH[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 19:09:22
>>loeg+rz
It's somewhat telling that both the mayor and the police chief deny ordering the abandonment. Who the hell is running the city?
replies(1): >>loeg+Z21
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17. mcv+IP[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 19:49:48
>>krzyk+LB
The goal of the protesters is not to have more protests. I'm pretty sure they'd rather stay at home and do something fun. The goal of the protesters is to stop police violence. So the police using force is the exact opposite of what the protesters want.
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18. mcv+GQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 19:54:26
>>zozbot+qd
Partly true. Yes, more emphasis in those cultural centres, churches, and other sources of community participation is absolutely necessary. But the police can contribute too. Netherland has neighbourhood cops that try to make sure they're known in the neighbourhood. They try to stay in touch with youths who hang out on the street. They try to make sure they know potential troublemakers and vice versa. They build relationships, which means they can talk, instead of just using force to solve every problem.
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19. loeg+Z21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 21:01:34
>>downer+GH
The open question is not about the city generally, but the police. "Who are the Seattle police accountable to?" And: good question. No one, apparently.
replies(1): >>downer+Lx1
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20. downer+Lx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 01:18:43
>>loeg+Z21
The question of why the Seattle police abandoned a precinct isn't really a question of who the police are accountable to. Clearly someone who feels that the police are a malign force ordered them to leave. Who had the power and did it?

My guess is the mayor and/or the forces that pull her strings.

replies(1): >>loeg+lF1
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21. loeg+lF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 02:36:42
>>downer+Lx1
> Clearly someone who feels that the police are a malign force ordered them to leave.

I don't think that's remotely clear. No one in SPD's chain of command feels that way and they definitely don't take orders from outsiders.

> My guess is the mayor and/or the forces that pull her strings.

Certainly Durkan doesn't feel that SPD are a "malign force" — she's a former prosecutor and has only been supportive of SPD. Including and especially during the last few weeks. She also doesn't have the authority to direct SPD, aside from appointing a police chief. So she has some sway over Chief Best, but she and Best are buddy-buddy. And Best has consistently claimed she (Best) did not order the withdrawal.

My best guess is it was a political / tactical retreat by a lower-level leader to end the violence and save face. That or union action by East Precinct officers — they just didn't want to be there anymore.

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22. darker+So2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 13:01:20
>>krzyk+LB
People in large groups typically don't exhibit intelligent coordinated behavior taking advantage of second order effects without training and coordination. Soldiers in battle require training to maintain formation in violent circumstances even though that's in their advantage as a group. It sounds like you may have a blind spot based on a preconceived notion here.
replies(1): >>krzyk+fs2
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23. krzyk+fs2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 13:39:53
>>darker+So2
Yes, I get that, but protests are rarely spontaneously created, they are organized by someone or some group of people.
24. omnisc+kC2[view] [source] 2020-06-13 15:04:33
>>mcv+(OP)
Have you seen the looting videos where streets of NYC got ransacked ?
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