zlacker

No, not even remotely "by all accounts". There are plenty of accounts that isn't "cool and unique" but is just another place ruled by violent thugs: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

I'm not passing judgment yet since the days are young and the political bias on the ground is thick in both directions. But it is definitely not "by all accounts".

But my personal bias on the table is that yeah, trading police that were imperfectly constrained by the system for new police utterly and entirely unconstrained by the system is probably not going to go well. The real "fun" will start when Raz's faction pisses off enough people to form a violent counterfaction and you get a gang war, so give it a bit. It takes time for these things to develop. Let the honeymoon wear off and have this place showing a functioning system for, oh, say, at least a month before declaring victory. Not that you declared victory, I'm just saying, I recommend against getting too invested in this.

It's not as if "a place that has no police" is some shocking new experiment that has never been run before; you've got plenty of places you can look out in the world to see what happens next. It's not a difficult-to-predict progression.

>>jerf+(OP)
I watched that video, I saw someone coming in and defacing peoples homes. The people filming asked if they had permission, then asked the person to stop. The person refused to stop painting and pushed the group of folks and there was a scuffle that ended with the tagger walking away.

Aside, intentionally or unintentionally, calling a group of predominantly black people "thugs" is a common dog whistle.

>>jerf+(OP)
A handful of incidents like these are being distorted and blown up by media that treats cop lies uncritically. In comparison, just a few nights ago, cops were beating people and filling the area with tear gas (banned under geneva convention) and it was seeping into residential homes so badly that even nextdoor is anti-police in that area now.

>>Pfhrea+F3
>and there was a scuffle that ended with the tagger walking away.

That was just the beginning of the confrontation. If you watch the full video the group then followed and hassled the tagger for several minutes before the tagger was hit in the face and had their glasses broken (and their smartphone was stolen from them). Someone also threatened to blow the taggers brains out.

>>0x262d+rt1
More relevantly, they were specifically ordered by their city council not to use tear gas and then went ahead and did it anyways, all over the city.

I'd like to think, regardless of anyone's politics, we could all agree that the elected government should have authority over the police.

>>jerf+(OP)
The "new police" are constrained by a different system than the officers. Namely, they weren't police-trained.

Whether that's going to be a positive or a negative remains to be seen, but that's one of the key notions in these protests.

>>shadow+Ly1
I'm dubious that the old police were "police-trained."

>>free_r+Vx1
Can you clarify the timeline? AFAIK the police used tear-gas, then they were ordered to stop by the mayor, then they stopped and switched to other means like mace. Do you know differently?

>>DenisM+BB1
that's correct, although the mayor (who has been very supportive of them forever, incidentally had Amazon campaign donation $350k) built various loopholes into the initial ban (namely, that the police chief could allow them to start re-using it). so, yeah, not much of a ban in the first place by the mayor.

>>jerf+(OP)
Worth keeping in mind as well that situations like that likely happened before, but a group protecting territory and chasing someone while police is not around wasn't newsworthy.

>>0x262d+rt1
> media that treats cop lies uncritically

Which media is that?

>>throwa+SJ1
cable news, evening news, most news on TV. Its a weirdly common viewpoint, at least after the past 2 weeks, that law enforcement officers do not lie.

>>0xB31B+7L1
Oh, weird. I don't watch much TV news, and the online media is playing the opposite game.

>>dclowd+RA1
Trained to be warriors: https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrio...

>>jerf+(OP)
> it is definitely not "by all accounts"

By all honest, first person accounts then?

Two stories down in the link you sent, theres a picture of a bunch of people calmly watching a movie in a makeshift outdoor theater.

It sure doesn’t look like the tear-gassed, rubber bullet fests we’ve been seeing around the rest of the country.

>>throwa+SJ1
There is a very strong correlation between: local news stations with sizeable real estate interests (i.e., aligned with the interests of property owners, speculative real estate investors, and yuppies interested in moving to "safe, updated neighborhoods" that have been recently cleared out of the poors) and local news stations that print police press releases almost verbatim with absolutely no journalism actually being performed.

For more info: https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-54-local-crime-re...

>>0x262d+rt1
I find it hard to take comments seriously when they make statements that just don't accord with reality.

The media treats cops according to what's best for the story. Lately, that involves being extremely critical of them. In other times when we aren't in the midst of a pandemic, mass unemployment and then nationwide protests, and the story is that the cops shot a criminal suspect, they use euphemisms like "officer-involved shooting." The media narrative today is extremely hostile to police.

So when I see "only a handful of incidents," I feel there might be a bit of an agenda behind that. Knocking down the World Trade Center twin towers and a side of the Pentagon were only a "handful of incidents," too. Not to mention the number of unarmed black people shot by police last year (nine total). All of those are a disgrace, but the sheer number of atrocities that happen are irrelevant to how unjust or outrageous the atrocities might be.

>>jerf+(OP)
Here is an update: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h7f01r/i_was_wrong...

My friends that have walked through the area can confirm.

Why predict defeat?

Why not appreciate the experiment as an alternative to our broken system?

Yeah, it'll eventually go away.

But maybe change will be secured, and there are some ideas that do make sense and will spread or stick around.

Is the worst that could happen worse than the status quo?

You sound like one of the commenters on Drew Houston's Ask HN telling him no-one will pay for rsync.

>>0xB31B+7L1
that's always been common. the "better" (not really) approach is to simply report "police reported that x, y, z happened" without any sort of critical perspective or fact check at all.

>>baryph+oX2
Viewing the media's relationship to police as being simply for or against them based on swings of public opinion is incorrect, it is maybe partially true but there is a strong and consistent bias towards law and order by corporate (private for profit) media. There are numerous reporters in Seattle still uncritically reporting police lies. There are a handful who are being more critical. Guess who has more resources and broader reach?

>>DenisM+BB1
The Mayor ordered them to stop using one specific type of tear gas -- CS gas -- last Friday. For one day, the police used alternatives including mace, pepper balls, steel cored rubber bullets, flashbangs, and smoke with irritating agents.

However, by Sunday (or maybe early, early Monday morning), the police were using CS gas again at the order of the police chief, Carmen Best.

>>Pfhrea+Un3
>However, by Sunday (or maybe early, early Monday morning), the police were using CS gas again at the order of the police chief, Carmen Best.

I did not know that. Do you have a reference to back this up?

>>DenisM+PX3
Chief Best said so herself at the June 11 press conference[1].

18:22: Reporter: "So, Chief Best, you stood here on Friday and you said it was going to be your decision and your decision alone to use tear gas. Tear gas was deployed on Sunday. You released a video today to say that it was not your decision to close the East Precinct. So who is making tactical decisions right now, for the Seattle Police Department?"

18:51: Best: "So for the tear gas, it was my decision. ... We suspended the use for 30 days unless it was a 'life safety situation.' And that was the exemption. ... The officers felt like it was a 'life safety situation' ... and I concurred."

19:27: Best: "I own that decision. I made that decision."

Here's a press conference transcript from June 7 where they claimed they would stop using CS gas[2].

Here's a secondary source reporting on the June 11 press conference[3].

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rE4VMjClqI

[2]: https://durkan.seattle.gov/2020/06/transcript-mayor-durkans-...

[3]: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/11/43893335/durkan-...

>>loeg+wx4
Thank you.