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1. kf+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-11 13:12:12
So my question: will Trump quickly and lethally invoke the Insurrection act? Will the Joint Chiefs comply or create a constitutional crisis?

If this isn’t shut down quickly, I predict we see a national movement like this by Juneteenth.

replies(2): >>Trasma+f3 >>smkell+Pb
2. Trasma+f3[view] [source] 2020-06-11 13:31:04
>>kf+(OP)
His threat to use the Insurrection Act last week was one of the most unpopular acts of his entire presidency, and directly led to the major rebukes from people like Mattis. So I doubt it.
replies(1): >>kf+64
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3. kf+64[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 13:36:54
>>Trasma+f3
While that’s a fair point, this situation is a more literal insurrection than the previously seen protests and taking of goods from stores. CHAZ has declared their independence from the USA and historically that kind of thing is really not allowed. Has Trump so thoroughly lost control that secession is legal now?
replies(3): >>balls1+z9 >>Taikon+Yb >>crocod+by1
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4. balls1+z9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 14:09:00
>>kf+64
They haven't actually declared themselves independent from the US.

That blurb on the website "You are now leaving the USA" is tongue in cheek.

The actual demands make no such claim about independence, all US Federal, State, and Local laws still apply.

There will eventually be arrests, and the WORST thing Trump can do is attempt to use the military to squash relatively peaceful protests.

5. smkell+Pb[view] [source] 2020-06-11 14:21:51
>>kf+(OP)
From 10 USC 253:

“ The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—

“(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or

“(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.

“In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.”

I don’t know. Without sufficient intel as to what is happening on the ground I wouldn’t know if civil rights are being denied. If they are and the local authorities are cooperating with the rebellious group then there might be a way to utilize the act. It is just too soon to tell.

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6. Taikon+Yb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 14:22:38
>>kf+64
I think the Seattle Police are thinking, "these are a bunch of kids who want to play-act La Revolución. If we just ignore them for a week, they'll get bored or disillusioned and go home."

So the police aren't going to storm the barricades -- they figure they won't have to.

replies(1): >>gen220+Bz1
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7. crocod+by1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 23:44:35
>>kf+64
This is a bunch of leftists forming a squat in territory consciously ceded by local police. Hardly a national security issue. The city continues to provide the area with utilities, clean-up services, port-a-potties, and EMS when requested.

Whether or not the city planned on this, it's a nice clean way to quarantine the most radical protest elements in a playground that lets them live out their revolutionary fantasies in an environment where they can either be constructive, or hurt one-another away from everyone else.

In a month, they'll probably cut services and start pushing them out without making a huge deal of it.

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8. gen220+Bz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 23:56:33
>>Taikon+Yb
This basically happens in Berlin every year on the May Day celebrations/marches.

The police let the anarchists do whatever they want, within certain constraints (no injuring people, constrained to certain neighborhoods), and the anarchists only do it on that day of the year. Sometimes there are conflicts between the police and the rioters, but it never escalates to huge conflicts any more.

It’s a display of mutual respect for authority, and it allows the radical groups to blow off some steam, while campaigning for progress.

I know this idea makes no sense to law and order -type people, but it’s an ancient human idea to ritualize and sanctify the behaviors you want to discourage or control.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day_in_Kreuzberg

replies(1): >>progra+NE1
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9. progra+NE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 00:47:22
>>gen220+Bz1
This is a fitting explanation, and I think developing these kinds of rituals further will help heal some of the divides in this country.

Your last paragraph reminded me of Eric Gans’ “Originary Hypothesis” [1]:

> Gans hypothesizes that language originates in "an aborted gesture of appropriation," which signifies the desired object as sacred and which memorializes the birth of language, serving as the basis for rituals which recreate the originary event symbolically. The originary sign serves to defer the mimetic violence threatening the group, hence Gans's capsule definition of culture as "the deferral of violence through representation."

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gans#The_Originary_Hypo...

replies(1): >>gen220+LG1
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10. gen220+LG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 01:07:49
>>progra+NE1
It’s definitely not an idea that originates with me! :)

I think I got it from a German Literature class. The professor had us read some formational texts, and one of them was a theory for the establishment of religion, written by some German 20th Century thinker. I can’t find the source now, but it was probably a pretty mainstream one, for all you internet sleuths out there.

He tried to put forward an evolutionary theory of religion. Basically, a tribe would come into conflict and children would kill their parents as a result. To try and prevent the same thing from happening to themselves, the children invented rituals that they taught to their children, so that they could control and direct their violence away from the parents. Instead of killing people, they would kill effigies made to look like people. Eventually, the children associate the effigies with their parents. But they like their parents, so they leave out the whole killing part when they teach it to their kids, who come to worship the effigies. They then kill animals instead of people. And so on. It was a really interesting exercise of rationalism!

If someone can find the source for me, I’ll give them my 2 internet points :)

Edit: I think it was Violence and the Sacred by Rene Girard.

replies(1): >>progra+3I1
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11. progra+3I1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-12 01:21:06
>>gen220+LG1
Ah, yep! Gans’ work is heavily based on Girard.
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