zlacker

If you see the cops, start recording

submitted by Tomte+(OP) on 2020-06-05 19:02:03 | 275 points 207 comments
[view article] [source] [go to bottom]

NOTE: showing posts with links only show all posts
18. latchk+G6[view] [source] 2020-06-05 19:34:19
>>Tomte+(OP)
A helpful resource for apps for recording: https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
23. readhn+X6[view] [source] 2020-06-05 19:35:33
>>Tomte+(OP)
-Don't Talk to the Police-

Regent Law Professor James Duane gives us startling reasons why we should always exercise our 5th Amendment rights when questioned by government officials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

http://www.olddominionbarassociation.com/Resources/Documents...

◧◩
25. pjc50+57[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:35:56
>>rectan+V4
They resigned in protest at being held accountable: https://twitter.com/DaveGreber4/status/1268977512320819203?s...
◧◩◪
36. schoen+i8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:41:37
>>domino+Y5
Maybe there should be a law enforcement equivalent of

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

which is something that the aviation regulators created in response to some of the dynamics you mentioned.

(I don't know how ASRS authenticates that people making reports are really pilots or aircrew.)

◧◩
39. cpeter+F8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:42:53
>>travjo+24
The ACLU confirms what you say:

https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1268588997829410816

"When you are lawfully present in any public space, you have the right to photograph anything in plain view, including federal buildings and the police."

"Police may not confiscate or demand to view your photographs or video without a warrant, nor may they delete data under any circumstances. Visual records are fully protected, but some states have tried to regulate the audio portion of videos under wiretapping laws."

59. aesh2X+Sa[view] [source] 2020-06-05 19:52:17
>>Tomte+(OP)
The NY ACLU app "stop and frisk" is now absent from the Play store. Any ideas?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.nyclu.stop...

◧◩◪
64. gootdu+jb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:54:06
>>pjc50+57
They only resigned from the task force, because their union would no longer pay the legal fees related to the protests.

"The union representing Buffalo police officers told its rank and file members Friday that the union would no longer pay for legal fees to defend police officers related to the protests which began Saturday in downtown Buffalo and have continued on and off, according to one source. The union is upset with the treatment of the two officers who were suspended Thursday."

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/05/57-members-of-buffalo-pol...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
65. advent+ob[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:54:30
>>atheno+y8
Overall violent crime is not much higher in the US versus other developed nations. Various prominent cities in Europe have serious violent crime problems for example, such as London and Amsterdam. The Netherlands has a higher rate of crime than the US does, and their violence is a lot less lethal. The US rate of lethal violence is higher than its peers and the very easy access to guns is the problem:

https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

◧◩◪
75. rgbren+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:59:02
>>domino+Y5
IANAL, but the law takes this into account by requiring mens rea to be convicted of many crimes [0]... for example, 1st degree murder. If it's an accident, it's not 1st degree murder because intent must be proven. At best, an accident might result in some lesser charge that carries less time in prison. So I doubt your scenario (a mistake results in life in prison) would ever occur.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

◧◩◪
82. neilv+od[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:04:46
>>domino+Y5
The area of flight safety provides some interesting practices to think about.

You might like some of the mission and stated thinking behind ASAP and ASRS, and that there's interest in encouraging pilots and crew to speak up about mistakes and other safety-related observations, so that everyone can learn and benefit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Safety_Action_Program...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Safety_Reporting_Syst...

Also related is FOQA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_operations_quality_assu...

I don't know enough about law enforcement to say whether and how any of these practices might be helpful to adapt to different and complicated challenges there.

Regarding admitting a mistake in software development/operations work that brings the site down, it helps to have a culture of trust that everyone can admit making mistakes. In that culture, you'll probably still feel sick and humbled by the mistake, but the first priority is for the team to solve the immediate problem. After that, everyone wants to understand the mistake, to try to learn and avoid problems like that in the future. The professional move is to be upfront with all pertinent information; the unprofessional move would be to attempt to hide information, misdirect efforts understanding the cause, etc. The professional move by everyone else is to expect and respect that professionalism, and to act in the same forthright spirit.

◧◩
92. neilv+xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:10:19
>>werber+52
My layperson understanding is that there might be legal implications of the "without it being obvious" part. For example, I don't know whether that could be a problem in Massachusetts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws#...

◧◩
93. driver+ye[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:10:31
>>waynef+O4
There's a Pi distro just for this: https://github.com/ccrisan/motioneyeos

I recommend buying commercial IP cameras for outdoors.

◧◩
96. threat+Ee[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:10:53
>>rectan+V4
Also, does anyone remember Chicago's black site?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-poli...

Where are the good men and women, and what is the sum of their good acts in the grand scheme of things?

◧◩◪
114. jedber+yh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:25:51
>>mainfr+Nb
It should work on iPhone 8. Perhaps you need to upgrade your iOS?

Pressing both should go into a mode where you can swipe to call emergency services or show your medical id if you have the feature.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208076

◧◩◪
125. lmilci+dj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:35:09
>>domino+Y5
What kind of mistake? Shoving a person that did not show any signs of violence towards the officer? Did you ever shove a person by accident?

Even if the older guy used language this could have been resolved without the need to escalate the conflict. Using violent force against somebody that does not seem to be posing a threat is a serious problem if your sole job is to keep peace.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police

◧◩◪◨
126. 6gvONx+ej[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:35:10
>>WilTim+Qa
https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po...
◧◩◪◨
146. domino+an[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:59:48
>>tialar+Sd
recording helps but its not always enough though. most recent example

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/23/boeing-737-...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
151. camgun+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 21:11:44
>>jonfw+gi
Not only am I willing to double it (or more), I'm willing to drastically reduce their duties. We ask far too much of police officers in the US, we need to respect their wellbeing and start addressing root causes of issues.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RtnQ2GqBeg

[2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/killing-of-george-fl...

[3]: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
161. mamurp+wt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 21:36:52
>>mcguir+9m
>There are no "close-call mistakes" in the situations which have caused outrage

I agree with you on that! As I said, "the clear cut ones pull at our heartstrings because they are so egregious."

The problem as I see it is that it's hard to tailor a bright-line policy that creates increased personal liability for police for their clear abuses of power and brutality, that doesn't also create increased personal liability for their close-call, reasonable mistakes. Some of the "5 demands" I have been seeing seem like reasonable starts [0]; none that I have seen focus on increased personal liability.

>If changing that causes some people to "avoid taking a job", good.

I would guess that you and I have drastically different estimations of how large an exodus from policing the wrong kind of policy change could cause. We need police reform, but we also need police.[1]

[0]For example, https://i.redd.it/e5ka53eb5k251.png

[1]See, for example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23410144 "Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police..."

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
163. Yetanf+gu[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 21:40:56
>>6gvONx+4i
Of course they need them on their person, having a gun in the trunk of the car does exactly nothing when confronted with a situation where having a gun can be the difference between life and death - that is some victim's life or that of the police officer. Do they always need to have them on their person? Probably not but there is a certain symbolic value in having armed police spread around society. The value here is that those who are intent on committing crimes can never assume that they will be safe from harm, no matter whether they are. The police is the long arm of the law whether you like it or not, the job can involve violent confrontations. It is a good thing to have police officers train in non-violent means of defusing situations and such is nearly always preferred over the violent alternative but the fact remains that sometimes violence is the only alternative - other than giving up and letting someone who is more violent take over.

In Sweden - where I live - there is a specific class of police called 'dialogpolis' (dialogue police). Their task is to use non-violent means to try to defuse situations, especially those around demonstrations and political manifestations. They are unarmed and wear civilian clothes but are recognisable by their yellow vests with the word 'dialogpolis' on the back. This part of the police corps was started after rioters and looters left large parts of the centre of Gothenburg in shambles in 2001 [1]. Dialogue police can only function in the presence of 'monologue police', i.e. the regular, uniformed and armed type. They are the carrot to the normal police's stick. The jury is still out on the effectiveness of this type of policing and they're often mentioned in a derogative way, partly due to the fact that they often seem to go too far in their attempts to ingratiate themselves with criminal gangs - grilling sausages and playing football does not seem to keep the gangs from committing violence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Summit_2001

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
169. chrisc+sz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 22:16:22
>>cwkoss+Av
No, I come from a family of first responders. Paramedics, firefighters and cops.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/12/27/police-deaths...

144 died in 2018. 96 already in 2020 and we're not half done.

https://www.odmp.org/search/year

986 citizens, of which 47 were un-armed. Twisting stats to feed your narrative won't change reality.

They're only vanishingly rare in the least dangerous neighborhoods, which incidentally need less policing than the most dangerous ones such as St. Louis, Memphis, and Baltimore.

Yes, armed people threatening innocent lives deserve to be shot and killed. You can't wait for the cavalry when someone is armed and dangerous. If you're police you are the cavalry.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
171. balaks+Ez[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 22:18:07
>>cwkoss+Av
"It sounds like your perspective is formed form viewing the TV show "Cops". This is not representative of reality."

That's a poor and unnecessary assumption. Just in the last handful of years there has been a proliferation of good quality bodycam footage that gives unprecedented insight into police encounters. It would be more charitable to ask where the commenter's perspective is coming from.

"Situations where police are able to survive only because they were able to quickdraw and shoot a criminal first like some sort of cowboy are vanishingly rare and possibly purely fantasy."

It sounds like you may be the one who needs some experience watching body cam footage and reading about incidents. Just off the top, here is a quick refutation of your "fantasy" statement (and there are many more like it):

https://www.bitchute.com/video/obyWX8Wojk6l/

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
173. notrid+aA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 22:21:54
>>bilbo0+ii
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/technology/facebook-emplo...

> Many of the employees, who said they refused to work in order to show their support for demonstrators across the country, added an automated message to their digital profiles and email responses saying that they were out of the office in a show of protest.

I'm pretty sure Facebook's "virtual walk-out" was virtual because they were all working from home. They still stopped working, en mass, for the day. They still risked being fired, and they still negatively impacted the company's productivity.

They just didn't actually walk out of the office because they never physically went to the office in the first place.

◧◩◪◨⬒
177. rabidr+GC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 22:46:51
>>HALthe+oB
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_office...:

> According to the FBI, which publishes the data in the Uniform Crime Reports, from 1980–2018, an average of 85 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed per year. Those killed in accidents in the line of duty are not included in that number.

From https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed...:

> In all, there were 1,112 non-suicide-related deaths at the hands of police in 2019

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
178. potato+2D[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 22:49:25
>>Yetanf+Zn
According to this, 25% of privately owned firearms are due to previous or active military service. Switzerland also has compulsory military service and you can't carry in public.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/switzerlan...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
186. heavys+zM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 00:11:58
>>jonfw+gi
Cops are often the highest paid employees on municipal and state governments' payrolls. For example, in NJ, the median pay for a cop is $105k[1] before factoring in overtime, benefits or bonuses.

It's a lucrative gig. In NYC, the NYPD runs commercials advertising full benefits, competitive compensation and only having to work for 20 years before being able to retire with a pension.

[1] https://www.nj.com/news/2017/05/how_much_is_the_median_cop_s...

[go to top]