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1. Pfhrea+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-05 16:25:06
Police who refuse to identify themselves and carry no markings used against an administration's political opponents sure sounds like something everyone should be opposed to, no matter their political camp.

If someone thinks that's a healthy part of a democracy, I'd be real curious about your reasoning.

replies(6): >>4gotun+T >>creagh+52 >>madeng+q2 >>analog+yj >>8note+C41 >>closep+2T1
2. 4gotun+T[view] [source] 2020-06-05 16:30:46
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
Sadly USA seized to be a democracy quite some time ago
3. creagh+52[view] [source] 2020-06-05 16:36:34
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
Undercover officers were used to inform on the Trump campaign in 2016 (see Azra Turk), sometimes it's necessary for national security.
replies(1): >>cperci+x2
4. madeng+q2[view] [source] 2020-06-05 16:38:12
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
I'd rather they be counterbalanced with a well-armed citizenry, such as the "cosplaying" the article insultingly describes.
replies(6): >>newacc+Z3 >>compsc+85 >>acdha+h5 >>beepbo+M6 >>ColanR+bm >>kthxby+HQ
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5. cperci+x2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:38:39
>>creagh+52
There's a big difference between undercover police officers and officers who are overtly police but refuse to identify themselves.
replies(2): >>creagh+04 >>bitwiz+Cc
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6. newacc+Z3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:46:55
>>madeng+q2
Do you genuinely believe that if the protestors had been armed that we wouldn't have had multiple deaths when the Park Police took the park by force? Or are you arguing that the police wouldn't have moved on the protestors at all?

Knowing what happened, I think it's clearly better for all of us that the park was held by hippies with spray cans.

replies(1): >>mywitt+gd
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7. creagh+04[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:46:56
>>cperci+x2
Sure, and they both fall into this category:

>Police who refuse to identify themselves and carry no markings used against an administration's political opponents

replies(1): >>newacc+Og
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8. compsc+85[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:52:02
>>madeng+q2
In this situation, the only thing a well-armed citizenry would weaponize is the false narrative that peaceful protesters are actually violent usurpers/anarchists/antifa/{$right-wing-boogieman-here}.
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9. acdha+h5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:52:38
>>madeng+q2
That makes things a lot more volatile: you have one side with a LOT more guns, armored vehicles, and aircraft — all you need is one mistake for them to start thinking force protection and a whole bunch of people are in the crossfire. When the dust settles, a lot of people will believe this says the protests were an Antifa army even if the first shot came from the other side.
replies(2): >>0x8BAD+Sb >>ColanR+1l
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10. beepbo+M6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 16:59:09
>>madeng+q2
Yes, because pop-guns do anything against trillions of dollars in armor plating and advanced weaponry. Of course we never talk about what happens if the armed population goes along with the tyrannical government against the repressed as we're seeing now.

This is such a mentally lazy platitude. All arming the population has done is incentivize them to use their arms against their fellow countrymen.

replies(2): >>kryoge+1d >>rm_-rf+Ag
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11. 0x8BAD+Sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:20:23
>>acdha+h5
The right to peaceably assemble does not include the right to assemble for the purpose of violence.
replies(1): >>x3n0ph+Ld
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12. bitwiz+Cc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:23:10
>>cperci+x2
The famous "We don't need no stinking badges" line was spoken by a character who led a band of Mexican bandits posing as Federales.

When bandits become indistinguishable from cops, cops become indistinguishable from bandits.

replies(1): >>csours+3f
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13. kryoge+1d[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:24:21
>>beepbo+M6
> Yes, because pop-guns do anything against trillions of dollars in armor plating and advanced weaponry.

of course it does. bombs or tanks dont help you hold a city - it is singly people with firearms to kill the other people with firearms.

its a different story if youre talking total war, but theres basically no scenario where american military would decimate american cities.

> This is such a mentally lazy platitude

interesting opinion considering all you have to do is look at the last two decades of failed intervention in the middle east.

EDIT: additionally, many places in the middle east were occupied against their will by the terrorist forces we were there to fight. thats not the same as a citizen militia resisting occupation

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14. mywitt+gd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:25:20
>>newacc+Z3
He genuinely believes that "armed protests" are peaceful because his side has been involved in hundreds and they were all peaceful.

So he obviously thinks the guns were the differentiator and not the privilege enjoyed by being a bunch of old white men with the support of the authorities.

A number of cops were shot at during these recent protest. Our mayor was discussing this very fact this morning. Turn out, all that body armor is highly effective at stopping small arms fire. (There was no elaboration on who did the shooting though, so I guess it could have been friendly fire)

replies(2): >>vorpal+lr >>icelan+hA
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15. x3n0ph+Ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:26:44
>>0x8BAD+Sb
The first amendment does not include the word "peaceably."
replies(2): >>zucker+Gf >>0x8BAD+mg
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16. csours+3f[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:31:40
>>bitwiz+Cc
Investigator vs Enforcer.

Enforcers should should be clearly identifiable.

replies(1): >>Gibbon+ln
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17. zucker+Gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:34:07
>>x3n0ph+Ld
You are incorrect.
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18. 0x8BAD+mg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:36:10
>>x3n0ph+Ld
Edit: (Full text of the First Amendment that I could find)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It doesn't need to. Just as it doesn't need to have a provision for yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. But such actions will have consequences.

Congress has the authority "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;". Assembling for the purpose of violence is by definition an insurrection. So if the First Amendment said nothing of peaceably assembling, we can assume it is meant so, otherwise the Constitution would say nothing of insurrections.

replies(2): >>colpab+Bt >>Superm+xO
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19. rm_-rf+Ag[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:37:00
>>beepbo+M6
Right, the superior technology and advanced weaponry was what led the US to so quickly and decisively crush insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq using dusty old AK-47s and cheap improvised explosive devices.
replies(1): >>kcb+Vk
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20. newacc+Og[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:37:41
>>creagh+04
That's not the only distinction that matters though. Investigators are assigned to specific crimes. Their job is gathering evidence, not enforcing laws.

The point to needing to identify police is that without that rule and the accountability that comes with it the "police" become just another gang on the streets. None of that is relevant to investigatory law enforcement.

Obviously both kinds of anonymity can be abused, but only one has an easy and obvious solution.

Seriously: no one sane thinks that riot cops should be operating in street clothes and refusing to identify themselves. This whole subthread is a ridiculous digression.

21. analog+yj[view] [source] 2020-06-05 17:49:17
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
I think the principle is pretty broadly recognized. As I understand it, international law would treat them as unlawful combatants. Use of irregular troops against a civilian population falls pretty much smack dab into the middle of what most people recognize as terrorism.

The only problem is that international law doesn't govern how a country conducts activities on their own people. But it reflects a widespread consensus nonetheless.

Note: I'm not accusing the police of terrorism -- that would be pretty massively inflammatory and not my intent -- but simply giving examples to support a widespread discomfort with using non-uniformed forces.

replies(3): >>bloak+Os >>andrew+VT >>jki275+Of2
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22. kcb+Vk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:55:06
>>rm_-rf+Ag
Now compare the casualties between the US and Afghanistan or Iraq.
replies(2): >>drak0n+8D >>8note+c51
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23. ColanR+1l[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 17:55:41
>>acdha+h5
There have already been instances of well armed African-American people openly carrying large guns forming parts of these protests. The effect? The police have known better than to respond with violence.
replies(2): >>LaMars+Pp >>stevul+mr
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24. ColanR+bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:01:24
>>madeng+q2
Everyone replying to you don't seem to realize that some of these protests have involved 'well armed citizenry' already, and their doomsday predictions of the result haven't happened. https://imgur.com/gallery/p3LRF1L
replies(1): >>drak0n+XD
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25. Gibbon+ln[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:07:21
>>csours+3f
That's my thought soldiers not in uniform have no legal protection under the rules of war. They can just be summarily shot for all the law cares.
replies(1): >>jki275+Fg2
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26. LaMars+Pp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:18:15
>>ColanR+1l
Genuinely curious: do you have sources showing this?
replies(1): >>ColanR+Xw
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27. vorpal+lr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:25:43
>>mywitt+gd
The black panthers had several armed marches.. and one reason why they took up arms was because they kept getting (illegally) arrested for marching unarmed. They actually sat at the California courthouse while armed.. and everything that day was peaceful. That did inspire Reagan to pass significant gun control laws though, both as Governor and President.

Image: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi...

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28. stevul+mr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:25:43
>>ColanR+1l
And yet in Vallejo this week a Latino man was shot for suspicion of having a gun in his pocket (not a crime) which turned out to be a hammer (also not a crime).
replies(1): >>ColanR+8w
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29. bloak+Os[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:32:33
>>analog+yj
I thought the whole point about "unlawful combatants" is that the concept does not exist in international law. It's just something that the US government made up as a bad excuse for ignoring international law.
replies(2): >>XOPJ+Bx >>rgbren+DE
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30. colpab+Bt[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:35:39
>>0x8BAD+mg
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...
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31. ColanR+8w[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:49:46
>>stevul+mr
Not the same thing in the least. I'm talking about people openly carrying guns as 'scary-looking' as assault rifles. I found the story you referred to. The difference is, the victim (at best, from the perspective of the police' defense attourney) looked to be hiding a concealable gun (not saying he was, or that the incident wasn't an atrocity): the man looked relatively defenseless. The people I'm talking about have the appearance of being able to win that same shootout, and the police can see it.
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32. ColanR+Xw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:53:17
>>LaMars+Pp
See my other comment. https://imgur.com/gallery/p3LRF1L
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33. XOPJ+Bx[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 18:55:50
>>bloak+Os
Given this is happening within the US I think it's valid to apply 'made up US law' against itself?
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34. icelan+hA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:08:08
>>mywitt+gd
Sounds a lot like someone who does not know the history of the Black Panthers and Republicans who used to be all about gun control.
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35. drak0n+8D[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:22:35
>>kcb+Vk
In a civil-war scenario, that level of destruction would be suicide for a government's economic and international survival and cause mass military desertion/defection. That counts as deterrence.
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36. drak0n+XD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:27:14
>>ColanR+bm
Not many people are aware - in Coeur d'Alene open-carry conservatives joined and protected protesters and successfully deterred rioters from subverting the protest. Local news interviews with protest leaders and armed volunteers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIS4C7ym5YM

If there is to be an alternative to the distant and aloof police state, it will have to be in the form of attentive and caring locals possessing sufficient enforcement power. Their look may vary based on local demographics, but I think that's okay as long as they are accountable to their neighbors.

replies(1): >>hopfsc+Ji6
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37. rgbren+DE[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 19:30:46
>>bloak+Os
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

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38. Superm+xO[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:16:03
>>0x8BAD+mg
> It doesn't need to.

Your interpretation is not compelling (as well as not relevant, due to the presence of the term).

When there is a question, entertained by a court and an emduring legal precedent, ipso facto there was a legal question. An assumption about what needs to be enumerated to exist, is the doctrine of strict constructionism.

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39. kthxby+HQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:26:58
>>madeng+q2
The cosplayers and the unmarked paramilitaries are on the same side.

When the NRA and their allies advocate for an armed citizenry, they emphatically don’t mean “our political enemies”

replies(1): >>jki275+qg2
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40. andrew+VT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 20:47:09
>>analog+yj
As you note, police are not subject to the laws of war -- they routinely use devices (pepper spray, tear gas, hollow-point bullets) that would be war crimes were they to be used in an armed conflict.

This is not problematic on the face of it -- police are expected to use non-lethal tactics whenever possible, and the laws of war are hugely biased towards killing rather injuring because overwhelming your opponent with casualties is considered inhumane in war.

41. 8note+C41[view] [source] 2020-06-05 21:49:31
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
If they aren't recognizable, should they be reported for impersonating a police officer?
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42. 8note+c51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 21:53:36
>>kcb+Vk
The US does not count mercenary deaths as casualties IIRC
replies(1): >>gowld+5j1
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43. gowld+5j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-05 23:52:33
>>8note+c51
Wikipedia does.
44. closep+2T1[view] [source] 2020-06-06 08:08:24
>>Pfhrea+(OP)
The self-preservation instincts of the United States government would be difficult for the most imaginative fantasy writer to overestimate. This is an institution that kept a fleet of custom-made aircraft on continuous airborne watch for 30 years, just in case all the secret backups to the secret backups of the underground operations centers were simultaneously destroyed, so that it would absolutely never lose the capability to end all life on earth.

Do you really think there aren't an infinite number of heavily armed spooks ready to materialize from the ground under Washington, D.C. on a moment's notice? Do you really the think the agencies they work for all officially exist? Do you think they haven't been there since at least Reagan?

There were fires near the White House. The leviathan is starting to feel a little bit threatened. Now if these guys are actually mixing it up with protestors I will be deeply worried. But while they are just a small presence on the sidelines, standing at at attention in their G-Man sunglasses and coiled earpieces, I will be reassured that the deep state functions exactly as I expect it to.

replies(1): >>hopfsc+Ei6
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45. jki275+Of2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 13:17:05
>>analog+yj
They’re not combatants at all. Totally inapplicable to the discussion and absolutely the wrong way to look at this anyway.
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46. jki275+qg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 13:22:43
>>kthxby+HQ
That’s absolutely untrue.

Any law abiding citizen should have whatever arms they want. I don’t care what their politics is.

replies(1): >>evanb+JE6
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47. jki275+Fg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-06 13:25:40
>>Gibbon+ln
That’s absolutely untrue. Unlawful combatants have less rights under the law of war, but no one is allowed to summarily execute them.
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48. hopfsc+Ei6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 07:53:45
>>closep+2T1
You have a child’s understanding of our government. This isn’t a Tom Cruise movie.
replies(2): >>closep+3m6 >>dang+rs7
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49. hopfsc+Ji6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 07:55:29
>>drak0n+XD
Every one of those people should have their weapons removed.
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50. closep+3m6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 08:32:17
>>hopfsc+Ei6
You haven't read much about the intelligence community or the nuclear weapons and continuity of government programs.

Hollywood has no need to make shit up.

replies(1): >>hopfsc+cQ6
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51. evanb+JE6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 12:25:49
>>jki275+qg2
You may feel that way but the NRA has a history of caring who has the arms. See, for example, 1967's Black Panthers

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nra-california-open-carry-...

replies(1): >>jki275+na7
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52. hopfsc+cQ6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 14:10:39
>>closep+3m6
I have read about it. I just don’t fetishize it.
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53. jki275+na7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 16:11:43
>>evanb+JE6
Claiming that a 1967 position accurately reflects my opinions about something (I wasn't even born then) is pretty silly.

Claiming that something that happened in 1967 is the current position of an organization on record opposing that sort of thing for at least the last 40 years that I'm aware of is also pretty silly.

Claiming that a political organization that is mostly concerned with how pretty Wayne's suits are and how nice his mistress' apartment in Fairfax is reflects modern gun owners' opinions is again -- pretty silly.

The NRA is a Fudd gunner's organization, they're an anachronism of the past, they're being abandoned in droves by anybody born since the 1960s, and quite frankly I don't give a shit what they think about anything -- and I especially don't care what they may have thought in 1967.

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54. dang+rs7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-08 18:01:25
>>hopfsc+Ei6
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our request to stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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