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[parent] [thread] 28 comments
1. mehrda+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-03 21:22:58
Man, this seems like such an uphill battle. I feel like unless they can show police were trying to deliberately target the press rather than just treating them like any other members of the public, they'll have that much more difficult of a time getting past qualified immunity and winning a lawsuit.
replies(3): >>TallGu+l >>toast0+h8 >>joncra+bV1
2. TallGu+l[view] [source] 2020-06-03 21:24:55
>>mehrda+(OP)
I agree with you this probably won't be easy. But the video of the CNN arrest is quite damning in my non-lawyer opinion. They had press credentials. They clearly and calmly identify themselves as press. They clearly and calmly state that they will move back to wherever the police want them. They are arrested 1 by 1 over the course of several minutes.
replies(4): >>anewdi+W1 >>mehrda+m3 >>thephy+V5 >>cabaal+n7
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3. anewdi+W1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:34:26
>>TallGu+l
The CNN arrest was not violent, not were they held long. The reporter later said everyone was nice, and they had orders to arrest anyone in the path of the crowd who did not immediately disperse. If there is an example of the police acting badly, or treating press differently, this is not it.
replies(4): >>dharma+a3 >>thephy+b6 >>jbeam+P6 >>TallGu+Gn2
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4. dharma+a3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:41:37
>>anewdi+W1
They were released quickly because the president of CNN was on the phone with the Governor of Minnesota within minutes.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/politics/tim-walz-minnesota-c...

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5. mehrda+m3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:42:17
>>TallGu+l
I'm having trouble finding the clip you're talking about (the link next to CNN redirects to AP News and says "PAGE NOT FOUND" for me?), but in any case: the thing is, I don't think (though IANAL, please do correct me if this is wrong!) it legally matters one bit that they had press credentials and clearly identified themselves as such. Being a journalist, as far as I know, doesn't give you some kind of immunity to anything. My understanding is that if they get treated better, it's only because the executive does it out of respect for the press or to steer clear of the line and build a more clear-cut case. But legally, I expect they'll just be treated like any random people. I imagine police will make a case that it's not realistic to negotiate with each person on an individual basis when dealing with crowds and that they have to do things in bulk as much as possible. And if you want to win, you can't realistically argue that they shouldn't have the power to do things en masse, so the only viable remaining argument I can see is that, even with that consideration, their actions were still somehow unconstitutional. It's possible one could make such a case for some of these incidents, but if the CNN case was merely one of being "arrested" as you describe (and not e.g. getting badly injured etc.), it doesn't sound like a winning case. The legal system seems to pretty much treat a mere arrest as a no-op in many situations... treating it otherwise requires clearing a really high bar as far as I've been able to tell.
replies(1): >>aspenm+q5
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6. aspenm+q5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:52:35
>>mehrda+m3
Here is the video of the CNN reporter arrest. I have included the description of the video below to help people find it:

A CNN reporter and crew have been arrested live on air while covering the Minneapolis protests over the killing of George Floyd.

Black correspondent Omar Jimenez had just shown a protester being arrested when about half a dozen white police officers surrounded him.

Mr Jimenez told the Minnesota State Patrol officers: “We can move back to where you like”, before explaining that he and his crew were members of the press, adding: “We’re getting out of your way.”

The journalist was handcuffed and led away alongside a producer and camera operator for CNN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIClA57jWmQ&t=138s

accompanying story from same publication's site:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cnn-report...

replies(1): >>mehrda+e6
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7. thephy+V5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:55:43
>>TallGu+l
I know exactly how the police will be defended:

"20 minutes before the video you saw, police announced that the protest was closed and declared an unlawful assembly for the purposes of public safety. All people remaining after that warning were in violation of the law and the officers followed their instructions to clear the area."

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8. thephy+b6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:57:13
>>anewdi+W1
Unfortunately, I don't think this comment should be voted down. I suspect it's exactly the orders police are given when the order to disperse a crowd/protest is given.
replies(1): >>colejo+bs
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9. mehrda+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 21:57:45
>>aspenm+q5
Thanks! Yeah, so that seems potentially distasteful (and maybe with bad optics for the executive) but I just don't see what's illegal about it.
replies(1): >>gpm+g7
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10. jbeam+P6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:01:04
>>anewdi+W1
An arrest doesn't need to be violent for it to be a bad act. At that point they were surrounded and would have had to push through the police to "disperse." They repeatedly asked police officers where they should go and were met with silence, so it's not clear where they were supposed to disperse to. They were arrested without the police saying a word as to why they were arresting them.

That screams of "I'm trying to figure out a way to arrest you, but I can't think of a reason. I'm going to do it anyway." Police should not be arresting journalists (or citizens!) for no reason. Being released quickly doesn't suddenly make the original act okay. It just makes it so it doesn't get worse.

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11. gpm+g7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:03:41
>>mehrda+e6
Arresting someone (restricting their movements) without probably cause that they are guilty of a crime is generally known as "false imprisonment", sticking them in a van and driving them away is generally known as "kidnapping", both are crimes.

If we believe the journalists that they were legally in the area, and the police either knew this or at least didn't have probable cause to support that they weren't legally in the area, I don't see how both of the above crimes were not committed.

replies(1): >>mehrda+p9
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12. cabaal+n7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:04:45
>>TallGu+l
IANAL. I've always thought of freedom of press as the right to publish. Is it now expanded to the right to be and go where others cannot lawfully go?
replies(3): >>petroc+u9 >>smiley+wf >>geomar+dN
13. toast0+h8[view] [source] 2020-06-03 22:10:50
>>mehrda+(OP)
> getting past qualified immunity and winning a lawsuit.

There's a lot of hubub about qualified immunity these days, but it only shields individuals from individual civil responsibility, it does not shield organizations from organizational responsibility for the actions of individuals under their employ.

Chances are, parties would sue the organization anyway, as the individuals are unlikely to be able to pay significant damages.

replies(2): >>petroc+ja >>newacc+Lb
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14. mehrda+p9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:17:36
>>gpm+g7
But do you actually believe police didn't suspect there was a crime? The video doesn't suggest that to me at all. Like this other person wrote [1], it doesn't seem unlikely that they were ordered to disperse or something under some public safety law and refused. (Or, I guess, you could say the reporter just didn't hear it and missed the memo. Doesn't really change it from the officer's perspective though.)

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409320

replies(1): >>gpm+6d
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15. petroc+u9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:18:12
>>cabaal+n7
The 1st amendment covers freedom of assembly as well.

> Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Press implies covering events and publishing about them. If that's not convincing enough, they spell it out in right to assemble, anyways. A press corps can assemble to cover events.

replies(1): >>mehrda+aa
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16. mehrda+aa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:22:08
>>petroc+u9
> Press implies covering events and publishing about them.

I don't think it implies that covering events has some kind of immunity. It's still subject to any general restriction on the assembly. The government can impose restrictions on the time, place, and manner of peaceful assembly, provided that constitutional safeguards are met. See https://www.loc.gov/law/help/peaceful-assembly/us.php

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17. petroc+ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:22:49
>>toast0+h8
The organization is funded by taxpayers and any awarded damages would be covered by taxpayers... so it's not a disincentive for the Police.
replies(1): >>toast0+wc
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18. newacc+Lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:29:44
>>toast0+h8
It's the ACLU. The goal here isn't go win a case for these individual journalists, it's to get a ruling clarifying the rights of journalists in the face of police action. The holy grail, in fact, would be to get a ruling rolling back the current scope of qualified immunity.
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19. toast0+wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:34:13
>>petroc+ja
Even if the individual office was fiscally responsible, their money came from taxpayers too. The community ends up paying for the damage its agents do to the community.

The police forces are managed by elected officials, who are elected by taxpayers. These politicians should be held to account by voters for either their lack of leadership on police abuse of force (my preference) or their lack of fiscal responsibility in allowing police abuse of force to continue, accruing large legal bills and settlements (and increased liability insurance costs, presumably).

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20. gpm+6d[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:37:00
>>mehrda+p9
I personally find it hard to believe that the police believed they had probably cause after the journalists told them that they had been instructed to stand there by another cop.

[Edit: This argument is a lot weaker than I thought it was because it's not entirely clear that the message I claim was communicated to the police was actually successfully communicated. See the replies/video below] Specifically I certainly don't believe that the journalists actually committed a crime if they had instructions from another cop that they could stand there. Those instructions would tend to negate any general order, and even if it didn't legally negate the order it would constitute entrapment and functionally negate it anyways. As a result I don't believe the police would think they had probable cause after they heard the camera crew claim they had received that instruction (and amusingly this is regardless of whether or not the camera crew had actually received the instruction they claimed to have received - to make it false arrest/kidnapping it suffices to be a probable enough claim that the police no longer believe they have probable cause).

A secondary weaker argument is that the governors order excluded the press from the curfew so even if the police had issued an order which included the press that order was illegal as applied to the press, and as a result they had no probable cause to arrest the press. It's weaker because to show they committed a crime under this theory I suspect (without checking Minnesota's statutes) you'd have to show they were aware of the contents of the governors order.

IANAL/I am not aware of the details of Minnesota's statutes - obviously details of the statues might change the above analysis in either direction.

replies(1): >>mehrda+gf
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21. mehrda+gf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:50:06
>>gpm+6d
> I personally find it hard to believe that the police believed they had probably cause after the journalists told them that they had been instructed to stand there by another cop.

At what timestamp did the journalists tell the police officers that they had been instructed to stand there by another cop? I must've missed that part when I watched the video.

replies(1): >>gpm+Gh
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22. smiley+wf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 22:51:59
>>cabaal+n7
Beyond the first amendment is the 4th estate doctrine, origin ating from British concepts.

While less legally defensible it is much of the reason why the BBC, FCC exist, why we have camera crews embed with troops.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

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23. gpm+Gh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 23:03:09
>>mehrda+gf
30 seconds in this clip of the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftLzQefpBvM

I remembered this as being stated too the cops much clearer than it actually was. Likely I was mixing what they said with what the CNN reporters said later on when they were replaying this clip.

replies(1): >>mehrda+ij
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24. mehrda+ij[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 23:13:58
>>gpm+Gh
Okay, yeah, this was before the timestamp the earlier link started, so I hadn't seen this bit. Looking at this segment, I can't tell if the officers heard or understood what's going on properly with their masks on and with everything else going on... and I can't really hear what the officers are saying either, so I don't know what they might've been thinking.
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25. colejo+bs[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 00:07:33
>>thephy+b6
It’s downvoted because it’s arguing that because the arrest was short and not violent, it’s ok. That’s not how the law works; An unlawful arrest is an unlawful arrest.
replies(1): >>mehrda+ys
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26. mehrda+ys[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 00:10:01
>>colejo+bs
They were not saying "it's ok". Those words are getting put into their mouth by other people. They were saying it's not an example of "police violence", which was the allegation in the lawsuit.
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27. geomar+dN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 03:20:21
>>cabaal+n7
This is also my understanding and why I don't agree with people who consider the press a protected class that can refuse to comply when the police delcare an unlawful assembly and order everyone to leave. That doesn't mean the police can act with impunity. It just means that the press are mistaken to think they can seek legal remedy when they are arrested for failing to comply with the order to clear out.
28. joncra+bV1[view] [source] 2020-06-04 13:36:02
>>mehrda+(OP)
It's still a battle worth fighting. You can't let them have it for free, you still have to put up a fight.
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29. TallGu+Gn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-04 15:43:02
>>anewdi+W1
Well what were they arrested for, exactly? I mean even if charges weren't filed and even if there was only the thread of violence and not actual violence, police still must have cause to arrest you, and I haven't heard an explanation that isn't very well debunked by the live video. They even ask, and nobody answers them.
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