zlacker

[parent] [thread] 60 comments
1. linsom+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:14:29
I can imagine animosity from the leadership, for example classifying most journalists as "fake news", contributing to violence from the front line against them.
replies(8): >>gamesw+c >>chadla+O >>fastba+11 >>starpi+k1 >>redism+n1 >>evan_+t1 >>ravens+O1 >>duxup+m3
2. gamesw+c[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:15:45
>>linsom+(OP)
I'm sure that has made things worse but general animosity between the press and police goes back decades.
replies(1): >>kingka+y
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3. kingka+y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:17:00
>>gamesw+c
Do not dismiss this new horrifying upswing in brutality with hollow generalizations
replies(1): >>alexpe+h1
4. chadla+O[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:18:08
>>linsom+(OP)
That, and the journalists are literally there to record evidence of their abuse. Police don't like it too much when you record evidence of them, say, beating a peaceful protester, or forcing a weapon into the hands of someone already pinned to the ground.
replies(1): >>imperi+B2
5. fastba+11[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:18:50
>>linsom+(OP)
Which in turn was perhaps caused by "the news" going from being mostly journalists to mostly pundits with the rise of mass media.
replies(1): >>tehweb+K1
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6. alexpe+h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:20:10
>>kingka+y
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

replies(1): >>moreli+Q1
7. starpi+k1[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:20:16
>>linsom+(OP)
You're assuming most cops support Trump?
replies(7): >>Trasma+J1 >>Loughl+e2 >>hrishi+m2 >>moreli+r2 >>superc+W3 >>Someon+O4 >>square+nb
8. redism+n1[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:20:33
>>linsom+(OP)
And "the enemy of the people"?
9. evan_+t1[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:21:00
>>linsom+(OP)
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11142215334617907...

> The press is doing everything within their power to fight the magnificence of the phrase, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! They can’t stand the fact that this Administration has done more than virtually any other Administration in its first 2yrs. They are truly the ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!

replies(2): >>choose+e3 >>ccvann+pn
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10. Trasma+J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:22:11
>>starpi+k1
Most cops don't have to support Trump. Just the ones attacking journalists.
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11. tehweb+K1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:22:32
>>fastba+11
Most news isn’t that, just cable news.
replies(3): >>exclus+d4 >>ravens+l4 >>fastba+As
12. ravens+O1[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:22:49
>>linsom+(OP)
No one can read minds.
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13. moreli+Q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:22:50
>>alexpe+h1
'kingkawn's response is neither snarky, uncurious, unkind, or demanding. It's pleading against a particularly common kind of cynicism.

Whatever else you might think of this situation, it's impossible to deny something has shifted. Appeals to "it's just the same thing" are at best hollow, at worst placative.

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14. Loughl+e2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:24:22
>>starpi+k1
Yes. It's anecdotal at best, but all of the 6 cops I know have either "Trump 2020" or "Trump No More Bullshit" or (my personal favorite) "Trump Making Liberals Cry Since 2016" flags flying above the US flag at their homes.

My baseline assumption is a vast majority of police/sheriffs/troopers support Trump. Is this incorrect?

replies(2): >>Invade+57 >>at-fat+9d
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15. hrishi+m2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:24:52
>>starpi+k1
Given how certain kinds of rhetoric from the political left demonizes police offers, it seems likely that many of them have found a home on the right.
replies(1): >>watwut+k3
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16. moreli+r2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:25:06
>>starpi+k1
For this to happen, all you need is one cop to "support Trump", and most cops to support cops before anyone else.
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17. imperi+B2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:25:47
>>chadla+O
Where have you seen cops forcing weapons into the hands of someone on the ground? I haven't seen that.

Definitely seen excessive use of force against seemingly peaceful protesters, but context is everything, and a 10 second snippet does not tell the full story of the interactions between that protester and that cop for the 45 minutes leading up to those 10 seconds.

I tend to reserve my judgement on those types of videos, since cops have been also taking a beating in the last few days with bricks, rocks, water bottles, etc... thrown at them off camera or before those clips start, where the convenient "editing" is done to portray the cops as the "bad guys" when often they have spent the last hour being insulted, assaulted and injured before they decide to move in with force on that "peaceful" protester...

replies(9): >>aphit+p3 >>Someon+w3 >>Loughl+U3 >>smiley+F4 >>hmcdon+H4 >>tacLog+56 >>daniek+j8 >>short_+Aa >>btbuil+bc
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18. choose+e3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:28:34
>>evan_+t1
> ...this Administration has done more than virtually any other Administration in its first 2yrs.

Mr President, that's going to need some fact checking.

replies(1): >>jeffbe+o8
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19. watwut+k3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:29:06
>>hrishi+m2
Then again, if being cop attracts far right, then left is bound to notice, comment on it and hate them.
20. duxup+m3[view] [source] 2020-06-02 18:29:11
>>linsom+(OP)
Leadership, but individuals too and they spread it themselves.

Bias is now barely defined as "I didn't hear my opinion read back to me." and just about any event is used to discredit entire news organizations, reporters, etc. Write some less than positive articles about a company "they have an agenda" and so forth. We get it on HN here too.

A buddy of mine was a camera man. Not far from the station was a lake where they heard there was some sort of boating accident. He got there first as the station was across the street, emergency services hadn't showed up yet and the crowd that gathered got quite upset and accused them of exploiting the situation somehow as soon as they got out of their van.

It seems people assume poor intentions, not just on the media but in most cases now.

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21. aphit+p3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:29:17
>>imperi+B2
See here: https://v.redd.it/m62sz14qmc251
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22. Someon+w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:29:27
>>imperi+B2
> Where have you seen cops forcing weapons into the hands of someone on the ground? I haven't seen that.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/01/cop-put-baton-george-floyd-pr...

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23. Loughl+U3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:30:28
>>imperi+B2
So the video of the man being held down and a baton being forcibly placed into his hand, is the one I'm assuming you're calling out.

What possible context would make that okay? In what possible scenario is putting a man's hand on a weapon for the sole purpose of harming him reliant on context?

These are not meant at all to be snarky, these are my very real questions, because I'm confused by your statements.

replies(1): >>imperi+98
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24. superc+W3[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:30:35
>>starpi+k1
Police Union Leaders are usually found at Trump Rallys

EDIT: Ok, downvoted for inductive reasoning, here is data point.

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1267883609886728193...

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25. exclus+d4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:32:01
>>tehweb+K1
Where can you find credible, unbiased news coverage?

I've started watching foreign news coverage of the US. It seems better, but I can't yet tell how much; all news still love the sensational stuff.

replies(2): >>Pfhrea+l6 >>chasd0+Pz
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26. ravens+l4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:32:30
>>tehweb+K1
It's interesting you say that, because most people feel one way or the other.

In my personal experience, even most written news is junk. It just seems like it's not junk because it uses intellectual language and doesn't feature a man in a suit speaking loudly. All news leaves out key details and editorializes.

But some people don't see it this way, and it's scary that we are this fractured because it's hard to reconcile. If two people are reading the news and come to dipolar conclusions, how do they come to an agreement? For the sake of argument, let's say that one perspective on the news is accurate, and the other is inaccurate; the chances that the more correct person will be able to persuade the person with the less accurate view seems close to nil.

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27. smiley+F4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:33:29
>>imperi+B2
In Atlanta, our excessive force on Saturday evening didn't literally force a weapon into someone's hands, but several officers have now been charged, and one of the discovery items was common post police incident reports of a weapon, even though no body cam footage mentions a weapon and no weapon was found.

It's a case of officers committing perjury as to the events that occurred to figuratively put a weapon into the scene.

The DAs slides https://twitter.com/wsbtv/status/1267843835889156097/photo/1

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28. hmcdon+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:33:32
>>imperi+B2
There is definitely a video from a day or two ago of a cop on top of a protestor with his hand pinned to the ground the cop then moves his baton under the hand of the protester and keeps it pinned on top. He proceeds to then punch his hand trying to appear as if he wants him to let go.

Also who gives a shit if they just got verbally harassed for an hour. I don’t get to lose my shit and delete a project because someone keeps submitting bad code. Why do cops get to lose their temper when their job is to keep the peace and enforce the law. Learn to control yourself and do your job or find another profession.

replies(3): >>Danilo+C6 >>at-fat+na >>linsom+1g
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29. Someon+O4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:34:03
>>starpi+k1
We don't have to assume police told us themselves they do:

https://www.policemag.com/342098/the-2016-police-presidentia...

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30. tacLog+56[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:38:17
>>imperi+B2
Not saying I can verify this is real or even from recent events. But I think this is the video he is referring to: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/guqzyg/the_...
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31. Pfhrea+l6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:39:38
>>exclus+d4
There's no such thing as unbiased news coverage. Any news outlet has more stories to report than they have capacity to report. They must exhibit some bias to control for what they show. (Or, alternatively, I guess they could just randomly select news stories, but I don't think that'd be very compelling.)
replies(1): >>fastba+ts
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32. Danilo+C6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:40:11
>>hmcdon+H4
>> Also who gives a shit if they just got verbally harassed for an hour.

This statement is emblematic of the fundamental problem affecting our culture.

I hate excessive violence. I hate excessive force. I can’t take anyone seriously if they argue that bad behavior doesn’t matter. Your 8 hour day in retail or at the office is not the same as working law enforcement during a riot.

It is entitlement or stupidity.

replies(1): >>kevinm+79
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33. Invade+57[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:42:05
>>Loughl+e2
My assumption is that the political affiliation of police officers will largely match the ratio of the area.

Majority blue areas will see more Democrat police, majority red (rural) will see more Republican sheriffs.

This is born out by the data I was able to find, but I can't vouch for the veracity: http://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/

Sheriffs and State Troopers are very majority Republican, police are barely majority Democrat.

I suspect that if we had individual data per region, the affiliation would track with the local politics, maybe with +2 R across the board, or something like that.

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34. imperi+98[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:46:14
>>Loughl+U3
I didn't say it was OK I said I hadn't seen it personally. It is obviously not OK.
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35. daniek+j8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:46:50
>>imperi+B2
Baltimore Cops Carried Toy Guns to Plant on People They Shot, Trial Reveals (2018)

That's institutionalized malice aforethought in my book.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xvzwp/baltimore-cops-car...

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36. jeffbe+o8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:47:01
>>choose+e3
Indeed. I can't think of an administration that has accomplished less. Even Andrew Johnson managed to buy Alaska.
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37. kevinm+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:51:00
>>Danilo+C6
If an officer is going to respond to hurt feelings with violence after some hour-mark, then:

1. police forces need to limit their time, and forces that do not need to held accountable

2. they need to not be police

They _need_ to be held to a higher standard than everyone else.

replies(1): >>Danilo+Pb
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38. at-fat+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:56:51
>>hmcdon+H4
>> Why do cops get to lose their temper when their job is to keep the peace and enforce the law. Learn to control yourself and do your job or find another profession.

TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242 DEPRIVATION OF RIGHTS UNDER COLOR OF LAW

Acts under “color of any law” include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under “color of any law,” the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

This means Chauvin could say he was acting under the "color of law" when he attempted to restrain George Floyd and during his restraint is when Floyd died. Because Chauvin was acting as a police officer and not a legal citizen, it was within his official duty as a police officer to apprehend someone who is breaking the law.

However, in the initial part of the statue, it clearly states:

This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

This also means the prosecution can simply say that Chauvin was a known racist and violent around black people and his restraint was not an approved technique for restraining or arresting someone, therefore, based on those facts, the prosecution can make a compelling case that Chauvin attempted to use "color of law" to cover his willful infliction and in doing so, deprived George Floyd of his civil rights while doing so.

The shorter answer is yes, they can lose their temper because it might be required in the application of their duties as a police officer and officer of the government for which they serve. No, in that they cannot abuse that power and use "color of law" to deprive someone of their civil rights under the constitution.

replies(1): >>FpUser+qp
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39. short_+Aa[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 18:57:50
>>imperi+B2
There's fault on both sides without a doubt, but I think this flare-up is culmination of a systematic discrimination against a race and a long string of unaddressed and unpunished misconduct on behalf of certain policemen.

I really feel sorry for the people in uniform who are genuinely trying to make a difference, when the few bad apples make sure that nobody can have nice things.

Something had to give though. There are only so many blatant crimes that can be committed by police only to go unpunished before people say Enough!

Worst of all, we are not talking about crimes that can be repaid or repaired. Murder is the ultimate crime in some sense as (ignoring religion) it's irreversible and the loss the victim and their loved ones have suffered is the ultimate loss that we can never undo.

The callousness and carelessness with which these crimes were carried out and the complete lack of remorse or even acknowledgment from leading figures in police unions is basically just more fuel on the fire.

The countless acts of kindness and compassion of (I assume) the majority of officers is unfortunately drowned out by these bad examples.

Something has to change. The police force clearly does not have the ability or will to solve this problem on their own.

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40. square+nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:01:40
>>starpi+k1
Cops, like many other corps wearing uniforms and carrying guns are very often -not always but very often- aligned with the right. I've direct experiences having worked with them, also have a close relative who taught at the police school confirming it. Not in the US, but I would be extremely surprised if it didn't work the same over there. The mindset is what matters.

So it's not that a cop embraces right wing ideals but rather the other way around: it's a job looked for by many people who feel the need to wear an uniform and carry a gun (exercise power, dominate others, there are lots of psychological implications). I'd say that also the cops who expressed respect for George Floyd might be Trump Supporters, although they don't agree with their colleagues violent methods.

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41. Danilo+Pb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:04:09
>>kevinm+79
No disagreement
replies(1): >>Mouse4+K81
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42. btbuil+bc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:06:09
>>imperi+B2
https://www.reddit.com/r/awfuleverything/comments/gv57ho/phi...

maybe maybe

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43. at-fat+9d[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:11:45
>>Loughl+e2
>> "Trump Making Liberals Cry Since 2016" flags flying above the US flag at their homes.

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is wrong?

EDIT: "Meh, I'm not going to try and explain it, I'll just downvote it." Bravo. B R A V O.

replies(3): >>macint+2t >>mwigda+Ct >>colejo+mQ
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44. linsom+1g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:24:02
>>hmcdon+H4
Nurses get verbally abused and harassed far more commonly than you might imagine, in extremely stressful, typically 12 hour shifts, and you just don't hear about them responding with brutality. Source: My wife and many of her friends are nurses.
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45. ccvann+pn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:52:56
>>evan_+t1
If "the press" is the enemy of the people, who would be the right person/party to gather information and report news?
replies(1): >>evan_+Jv
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46. FpUser+qp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:02:53
>>at-fat+na
>the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties

This is probably the most disturbing thing I read about law enforcement. To me it translates into following: as an officer acting under "color of law" I am free to loose my temper and kill whoever the f..k I want for any reason as long as I am not doing it based on color/race/whatever. All I have to do is to "pretend to act in the performance of my duties".

Can somebody correct me if I am wrong (I sincerely hope I am).

replies(1): >>jcranm+Nz
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47. fastba+ts[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:21:05
>>Pfhrea+l6
Or they could only write about things they have thoroughly researched, not try to write about every event that happens, many of which they are just regurgitating from another source without any additional fact-checking or analysis anyway.
replies(2): >>macint+it >>Pfhrea+TC
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48. fastba+As[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:22:03
>>tehweb+K1
Most news is definitely not "journalism" either.
replies(1): >>virapt+dA
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49. macint+2t[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:25:17
>>at-fat+9d
Ignoring the antisocial aspects of the wording, the U.S. flag code indicates the national flag should always be the highest in a display.

“When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag’s right.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/7

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50. macint+it[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:28:05
>>fastba+ts
Research, and presenting context for the news item, always means interpretation, and that leads to accusation of bias.
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51. mwigda+Ct[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:29:43
>>at-fat+9d
He didn't say it was wrong, just that it was evidence that they are Trump supporters.

But it is wrong, nonetheless -- it violates 4 U.S. Code § 7(c).

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52. evan_+Jv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 20:44:15
>>ccvann+pn
The insinuation is, TrumpTV
replies(1): >>colejo+ub1
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53. jcranm+Nz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:08:13
>>FpUser+qp
My understanding is that "color of law" merely refers to the state of being where a person is acting in an official capacity. It imparts no legality or illegality of actions per se, but statutes might criminalize or decriminalize activity based on whether or not a person is acting under color of law.

What GP is referring to is a provision in the federal law that specifically criminalizes police activity undertaken under color of law. (Reading the statute, in this scenario, the police officer can be charged up to and including the death penalty).

As far as I'm aware, states' statutes for murder or manslaughter do not protect people acting under color of law.

replies(1): >>FpUser+d51
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54. chasd0+Pz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:08:36
>>exclus+d4
what i try to do is read the story from two sources that hate each other and try to take an average. Stay away from opinion and "analysis" pieces period.
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55. virapt+dA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:11:07
>>fastba+As
That's a big distinction I think. Also looking at who provides cheap and easy summaries vs raw information / deep investigation helps. Right now even if Unicorn riot is likely biased in many ways, I'll take them actually standing in the crowd doing a live stream for days than another source: https://unicornriot.ninja/
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56. Pfhrea+TC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 21:29:09
>>fastba+ts
Ok, how do you select the things to research without bias?
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57. colejo+mQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 22:42:36
>>at-fat+9d
The irony that you’re missing is that many conservatives hold the flag to a very high standard. Standing on it, not pledging allegiance, etc. are wrong in their eyes. Look no further that Collin Kaepernick when he took a knee at the NFL. Then you have those same people (the “rule of law” people) turn around and ignore the Flag Code (never mind it not being enforceable) is quite ironic.
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58. FpUser+d51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 00:32:48
>>jcranm+Nz
>*As far as I'm aware, states' statutes for murder or manslaughter do not protect people acting under color of law.

Phew. thank you. Hopefully maiming is not protected as well.

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59. Mouse4+K81[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 01:01:13
>>Danilo+Pb
Then what was your point? You might as well delete your comment.
replies(1): >>Danilo+XB1
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60. colejo+ub1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 01:25:01
>>evan_+Jv
In all actuality, it’s probably Fox News. They’re one of the few remaining “big” newsrooms with a heavy conservative bias. Nothing wrong with that, but when people take what them and Trump say as doctrine, well, that’s a problem.
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61. Danilo+XB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-03 05:59:20
>>Mouse4+K81
My point is there is not enough empathy going around and it still stands.
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