zlacker

[parent] [thread] 26 comments
1. danali+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-17 17:12:49
I've cancelled any and all memberships, subscriptions, etc. with Amazon and anything they own, and I'm no longer ordering anything from them. It's completely unacceptable to treat workers this way, even if Bezos weren't the richest person on earth. Which he is! So on top of treating people like disposable garbage, he controls a plurality of the world's resources and refuses to mobilize any of them to help his workers.
replies(5): >>enitih+f1 >>pnw_ha+u3 >>yibg+j4 >>misun7+zi >>blabla+hj
2. enitih+f1[view] [source] 2020-04-17 17:20:53
>>danali+(OP)
Where do you buy from? Only local small business or someplace which pays even less than Amazon to their workers?
replies(1): >>danali+2a
3. pnw_ha+u3[view] [source] 2020-04-17 17:34:03
>>danali+(OP)
Almost every business in the developed world relies on warehouse workers and pickers. Any manufacturer that sells parts or replacement parts relies on pickers. Every grocery store chain or department store chain relies on warehouse workers and pickers.

Small outlets rely on distributors that rely on warehouse workers and pickers.

Just about everything people use, eat, ride, drive, or wear relies on warehouse workers.

Most non-Amazon warehouse workers are treated worse and paid less than Amazon employees.

If you hate Amazon so be it, but hating them for the way they treat their warehouse workers and pickers is not rational unless you hate just about every modern business equally.

replies(4): >>danali+W9 >>bigbob+9b >>blabla+Wk >>yellow+V71
4. yibg+j4[view] [source] 2020-04-17 17:39:40
>>danali+(OP)
What are some of the place you buy from that treats their workers better?
◧◩
5. danali+W9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:21:54
>>pnw_ha+u3
"Everyone else does it" is a red herring, even if Amazon weren't arguably sui generis. And this isn't about hate. I simply decline to participate in behavior that is unapologetically wrong.
replies(2): >>exolym+Kd >>enitih+je
◧◩
6. danali+2a[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:22:54
>>enitih+f1
This isn't about how much people are paid.
replies(1): >>enitih+rd
◧◩
7. bigbob+9b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:32:06
>>pnw_ha+u3
> non-Amazon warehouse workers are treated worse

Source?

replies(1): >>maland+Oq
◧◩◪
8. enitih+rd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:48:07
>>danali+2a
So do you have another metric which can be compared across companies objectively? Or is it okay to soak the feel good by boycotting a company even if it means choosing worse ones?
◧◩◪
9. exolym+Kd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:50:17
>>danali+W9
> I simply decline to participate in behavior that is unapologetically wrong.

You don't, though, which is the other person's point. Unless you've radically changed your consumption habits to only buy directly from producers (and ecommerce is ruled out, since you're not okay with the typical conditions of logistics employment). In reality, you've singled out Amazon. Which is fine! But at least admit that. It's a political statement, you haven't achieved labor rights veganism.

replies(2): >>enitih+we >>danali+9V1
◧◩◪
10. enitih+je[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:53:27
>>danali+W9
You don't buy anything anywhere? What do you not participate in? You don't buy from any store which doesn't pay 30$ per hour or something similar? You don't buy products made by poorly paid workers? So no laptop and no smartphones? You sir, have my salute if you are typing this on an ethically made computer.

Off course, it is totally fine to participate in things and also criticise them, as that is how things improve. But if everyone obsess on a company not in the bottom of bad behaviour, this simply gives more power to companies behaving worse. One can off course claim that their criticism depends on the PR perception of the company,but I guess that's not fashionable.

I don't think the argument is everyone else does it. The argument is Amazon is paying much higher than many other companies for the same job, and still being focused over, while companies paying less get a free pass.

replies(2): >>Apocry+of >>lozani+Lg
◧◩◪◨
11. enitih+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:54:47
>>exolym+Kd
Yup, the majority of the people on this thread claiming complete disassociation with bad behaviour are not offering the alternatives used by them, as if it is a kind of secret society.
replies(1): >>Apocry+bD
◧◩◪◨
12. Apocry+of[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 18:59:28
>>enitih+je
Costco is probably an easy substitute, given their reputation for good treatment of its workers and comparable deals and ease of delivery.

Edit: or maybe not.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22901893

◧◩◪◨
13. lozani+Lg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:06:34
>>enitih+je
This got me thinking, do you actually know of an entirely ethically made computer? I'd be interested in checking such a thing out if it exists.

Interesting concept when you consider how deep the supply chain is for all the raw materials. The provenance on lithium and silicon would be critical I'd think.

replies(1): >>fumar+Or
14. misun7+zi[view] [source] 2020-04-17 19:17:04
>>danali+(OP)
The irony in you typing this from most likely an iPhone/Android/PC made in China by factory workers under conditions far far worse than Amazon is quite palpable.
replies(1): >>r00fus+7k
15. blabla+hj[view] [source] 2020-04-17 19:21:38
>>danali+(OP)
Yup, and there are tons of alternatives. Maybe sometimes it's not obvious for instance where to get some movies or order certain stuff. But a bit searching often pays off and sometimes reveals even more interesting places where to buy things. (I wish AWS wasn't that popular though...)
replies(1): >>r00fus+Nj
◧◩
16. r00fus+Nj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:24:48
>>blabla+hj
I try to avoid Amazon when it's feasible. Care to list alternatives worth mentioning? Google express/shopping was great until it really just fell off a cliff a year or two ago.
replies(1): >>blabla+EA
◧◩
17. r00fus+7k[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:26:54
>>misun7+zi
A bit of whataboutism never hurts the argument I guess...
◧◩
18. blabla+Wk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 19:30:40
>>pnw_ha+u3
Most standard household stuff can be bought via eBay from small shops or directly from the vendors. I recently bought from a small online shop that even has a YouTube video with an employee person showing how he prepares a package.

Obviously most businesses cannot realize fully automated picking yet, but even those who can't: preventing employees from drinking water is a human right violation.

◧◩◪
19. maland+Oq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:15:32
>>bigbob+9b
I swear, I wish we could remove the downvoting privileges of anyone that downvotes a comment that does nothing more than ask for sources and evidence. This is HN, not Reddit.
◧◩◪◨⬒
20. fumar+Or[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 20:22:46
>>lozani+Lg
Where do you draw the line? Where do you start to care, or is it all too linked and impossible to unravel?
◧◩◪
21. blabla+EA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 21:29:42
>>r00fus+Nj
For Video on demand apart from iTunes, Netflix there are plenty of niche websites especially for art house movies, criterionchannel.com is probably the largest though.

And for the German market for example there is book delivery from thalia.de which can deliver via mail or to a book shop. (And momox.de for used book buy/sell - I stopped selling books on Amazon years ago because it's just too much effort, Momox has a simple bulk preparation)

replies(1): >>r00fus+gS
◧◩◪◨⬒
22. Apocry+bD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-17 21:52:36
>>enitih+we
Try this:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/alternatives-to-amazon-walmar...

◧◩◪◨
23. r00fus+gS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-18 00:20:49
>>blabla+EA
Thanks but I'm more concerned about daily basics and groceries - both areas where Amazon is recently ascendant.
replies(1): >>blabla+Ar1
◧◩
24. yellow+V71[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-18 04:02:20
>>pnw_ha+u3
> Most non-Amazon warehouse workers are treated worse and paid less than Amazon employees.

I've worked in a couple warehouses and have a lot of friends and colleagues who have, too (I never worked for Amazon, but a lot of said friends and colleagues did). The consensus is that Amazon's treatment of its warehouse workers is about as bad as it gets. There are plenty of warehouses that take employee safety seriously, that pay well with decent benefits, that allow their employees to take restroom breaks instead of forcing them to resort to pissing in bottles at their pack stations (seriously, Amazon, what the hell?), that put at least some semblance into temperature control (as difficult as it may be to do in a large building like a warehouse) and that overall treat their employees like human beings instead of machines.

It's good to be skeptical of the treatment of workers as a rule, but there are definitely different circles of Fulfillment Hell, and working for Amazon's pretty damn close to the inner-most of those circles. Amazon does pay better than average, but there are apparently few companies that treat their workers worse (at least in the US).

replies(1): >>pnw_ha+Kz4
◧◩◪◨⬒
25. blabla+Ar1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-18 09:30:44
>>r00fus+gS
Yeah ok, not sure about that. I basically try the online shopping functions that the supermarket/drug store chains offer that I would normally enjoy visiting in person. (But I have to plan in advance for that) Also I'm trying Hello Fresh soon.

But I mean when there is no other alternative, it would probably be exaggerated to not buy at Amazon in the current situation...

◧◩◪◨
26. danali+9V1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-18 15:13:42
>>exolym+Kd
"Labor rights veganism" isn't the goal. You seem to be suggesting that unless someone can achieve ethical perfection, there's no point in doing anything. I don't agree with that.

You also seem to be applying black-and-white thinking to problems of right and wrong. Some things are more wrong than others.

On a scale from "single mother cheating on her taxes so she can feed her kids" to "cold-blooded murder," Amazon is (in my opinion) beating puppies with sticks. When someone does something not just wrong, but inexcusable, and is unapologetic, I don't say to myself, "well, lots of other people have done/do bad things." I doubt you do either.

◧◩◪
27. pnw_ha+Kz4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-19 20:19:13
>>yellow+V71
I used to do employee-side employment law, once I had a non-Amazon picker client, he was getting jacked around for exercising his FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993) rights, ultimately getting fired under the cover of a riff.

I did a lot of research about the 'picker industry' for that case. What a nightmare job. I can't imagine having to work somewhere like that with all the rules, quotas, bully leadership, favoritism, etc., worse than the Army.

[go to top]