zlacker

[parent] [thread] 38 comments
1. mythz+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-14 16:28:29
Great news for everyone bar startups competing with them as it looks like Microsoft is turning their multi-billion acquisition of GitHub into a loss leader to get as many devs using their platform as possible, no doubt to flex seamless integrations into Azure which looks like they're executing exceptionally well with their acquisitions & new feature giveaways.

From the side-lines it looks like they're slowly becoming an unstoppable dominant force, what's surprising to me is AWS's / GCP's inaction, they're either asleep at the wheel or they don't see Microsoft's dev mindshare grab as a threat.

replies(6): >>jdminh+N4 >>cjdu+V6 >>jedber+j7 >>trough+r9 >>anders+qv >>adverb+By
2. jdminh+N4[view] [source] 2020-04-14 16:48:39
>>mythz+(OP)
I'm not sure it's great news for those of us who are smaller users of Github. You would expect Github to concentrate even harder on enterprise users now that we're not paying anymore.

I'm not complaining; MS should point GH at where the money is and there is competition you can switch to. I'm just not excited to save a few bucks a month given what will likely change.

replies(1): >>mythz+t9
3. cjdu+V6[view] [source] 2020-04-14 16:58:22
>>mythz+(OP)
Agreed. I cannot believe that GCP and AWS are so asleep at the wheel either. If I were them I would literally be throwing money at some of the GitHub folks to have them fix AWS or GCP.

And it was should have been rather obvious when GitHub released the beta of Actions a few years ago. Actions remains the most important thing GitHub has done, ever, in my opinion. It might take a few more years for people to fully realize what this could be. Hope GitHub doesn't screw it up!

replies(2): >>irrati+C8 >>maniga+Ig
4. jedber+j7[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:00:02
>>mythz+(OP)
So far Microsoft isn’t taking customers away from AWS. They’re just expanding the total market.

But I do wonder if AWS will try to buy gitlab.

replies(3): >>plange+7y >>oaiey+4A >>skoski+KF2
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5. irrati+C8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:05:21
>>cjdu+V6
What is Actions?
replies(3): >>Someon+c9 >>chocol+G9 >>finger+ig
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6. Someon+c9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:08:59
>>irrati+C8
Continuous integration (CI) and continuous deployment (CD) services. Essentially when you merge a changeset you can configure a specific branch to automatically test, package, deploy, and integration test that branch with no additional human intervention.
replies(2): >>Thaxll+sd >>irrati+zg
7. trough+r9[view] [source] 2020-04-14 17:10:10
>>mythz+(OP)
Blazor is slow to start but I think long-term will be a game changer.
replies(2): >>Someon+eb >>oaiey+GA
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8. mythz+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:10:28
>>jdminh+N4
Unlikely, freemium users would make up the overwhelming majority which has been getting more value & less reasons to need a paid subscription with each release since their acquisition of which I've yet to see any signs of neglecting their existing user base.

IMO Microsoft views GitHub's user base as potential Azure leads and Cloud computing as the current & future lucrative computing utilization business model who has been pulling out all stops to grow Azure as fast as possible.

They're fortunately rich & big enough that they don't need every one of their business to maximize their profits and are more than happy to leverage the synergies in their different assets to funnel more business into Azure.

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9. chocol+G9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:10:58
>>irrati+C8
https://github.com/features/actions
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10. Someon+eb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:18:03
>>trough+r9
You mean Microsoft's latest attempt at Web Forms/Silverlight, a product that yet again tries to muddy the separation between client and server execution contexts using magic.

Seems like every generation re-invents this idea, and every time it fails for the same fatal flaw: Illusions are just that, and you'll wind up hacking around the illusion if you want to do something not envisioned (or run into a bug in the secret sauce).

And before someone replies "it is nothing like Web Forms!!!" here's a direct quote from Blazor's homepage:

> Blazor can run your client logic on the server. Client UI events are sent back to the server using SignalR - a real-time messaging framework. Once execution completes, the required UI changes are sent to the client and merged into the DOM.

That's literally how Web Forms worked.

replies(3): >>deburo+Cg >>maniga+Kj >>Gordon+rl
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11. Thaxll+sd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:27:32
>>Someon+c9
AWS has that.
replies(1): >>jlisam+gj
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12. finger+ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:40:17
>>irrati+C8
Workflow automation w/ built in CI/CD, package management and code scanning etc.

The most important bit is workflow automation. It can be triggered on most (all?) events github emits

https://help.github.com/en/actions/reference/events-that-tri...

It was super obvious the value prop when it was HCL based. YAML based it kind of looks more like 'another CI'. It's still insanely powerful, just not as developer friendly anymore.

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13. irrati+zg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:41:57
>>Someon+c9
So Actions is similar to Jenkins?
replies(1): >>bastar+rE1
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14. deburo+Cg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:42:06
>>Someon+eb
Well, it seems to be one mode anyway. Even in that mode, it seems more flexible and probably more efficient too, than Web Forms.
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15. maniga+Ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:42:46
>>cjdu+V6
There are dozens of CI/CD offerings and many are better designed than Github actions, including Gitlab's CI runners.

I don't see what paying Github would do for AWS or GCP. They both have their own code repos, build pipelines, container registries, and more. Even Azure has its own DevOps product.

replies(2): >>jjeaff+zj >>chairm+uS1
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16. jlisam+gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:53:13
>>Thaxll+sd
that's just a subset of the features you can develop with actions
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17. jjeaff+zj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:54:26
>>maniga+Ig
I use Gitlab's CI runners and I agree. However, I am pretty excited about the direction that Github is going with their actions. Having a directory of user created actions and integrations seems like gold to me and I hope Gitlab starts leaning that way soon.
replies(1): >>hn_thr+sy1
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18. maniga+Kj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 17:55:01
>>Someon+eb
There's nothing magic about it. Web Forms was a great innovation and brought the WinForms model to the web. It was more productive than anything else at the time and directly influenced MVC patterns (which asp.net itself went towards) and component-based UI.

Blazor is the next evolution in client-side and offers an alternative to building component UI with C# running through WebAssembly instead of Javascript. Again it's much more productive and lets backend teams reuse much of the same code, similar to JS/node projects today.

Blazor's server-side runtime is a optional model where all the component logic can run on the server and be delivered over a SignalR connection to further increase productivity and efficiency where it makes sense (highly constrained devices, local intranet apps, etc. There's even experimental projects to bring Blazor for mobile apps.

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19. Gordon+rl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:01:42
>>Someon+eb
This is a really cynical take.

I'm also not sure why you are conflating Silverlight with Web Forms - it was never competing with Web Forms, it was client-side only, a replacement to Flash - a better UI and API (at the time) than HTML/CSS/JS.

Blazor is OSS, and doesn't work like Web Forms.

As in your own quote, Blazor uses SignalR - which uses push-based comms, such as Web Sockets; Web Forms was standard HTTP.

replies(2): >>Someon+fv >>pknopf+nF1
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20. Someon+fv[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 18:47:52
>>Gordon+rl
> This is a really cynical take.

I was a Web Forms developers, I've earned at least that. Blazor absolutely does work like Web Forms, in terms of client<->server integration, just because it uses WebAssembly & SignalR instead of JavaScript & Ajax doesn't really change that but rather obfuscates it. Essentially it is just another set of abstractions attempting to paper over a real boundary.

> As in your own quote, Blazor uses SignalR - which uses push-based comms, such as Web Sockets; Web Forms was standard HTTP.

Which makes it even worse, if the client/server boundary wasn't muddied enough with with the unidirectional magic Web Forms used, now we have omnidirectional instead. As if that will make it less complicated and buggy.

Definitely put me in the "nay" category with Blazor. I've danced this exact tango with Microsoft twice before, and their obsession with making browsers desktop-like applications. WebAssembly is cool tech for one day, they're just abusing it for something that is an inherently bad idea.

replies(1): >>kovac+tW1
21. anders+qv[view] [source] 2020-04-14 18:48:23
>>mythz+(OP)
As a counterpoint, alternative options like Gitlab and Gitea seem to be doing pretty well.

I think the person who solves project discovery across all these services is going to make a killing.

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22. plange+7y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:01:50
>>jedber+j7
Gitlab states it wants to go public this year

https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/being-a-public-company/

replies(2): >>jedber+1F >>yumraj+Se1
23. adverb+By[view] [source] 2020-04-14 19:03:29
>>mythz+(OP)
> Great news for everyone

Not true.

The new Team plan will be a downgrade in specs from the old teams plan. For example it only includes 3000 Github Action minutes. The old plan included 10000. The next plan up would be > 2 * old price.

Source: https://github.com/pricing vs http://web.archive.org/web/20200406010552/https://github.com...

replies(1): >>danpal+rN
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24. oaiey+4A[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:10:49
>>jedber+j7
While Amazon tried to go into the private hosting and ci/cd market, they are not a dev tool company. Microsoft was born as one. When Amazon or Google would buy GitLab they would meaningless integrate it, reduce staff by half and then ruin it over time.

Maybe when Microsoft would have opened up some years earlier, Codeplex would not share the fate of Google Cloud.

replies(1): >>sdesol+NK
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25. oaiey+GA[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:13:45
>>trough+r9
As a .NET fanboy: no it will not be a game changer. It is too fat and does not fit the rest of the web development model. Similar to Xamarin it will be a platform to run C# and .NET on. It will not be the native or best experience. It will be productive and enable cross form factor reuse of code. Not more, not less.
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26. jedber+1F[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 19:35:32
>>plange+7y
That doesn't preclude AWS (or anyone else) from trying to buy them. :)

I don't know how much control their external board members have, but if an offer came in, the board may be able to force acceptance instead of going public.

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27. sdesol+NK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:08:32
>>oaiey+4A
> While Amazon tried to go into the private hosting and ci/cd market, they are not a dev tool company

When did Amazon give up?

replies(1): >>oaiey+IZ
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28. danpal+rN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 20:22:50
>>adverb+By
You can buy extra build minutes. The missing 7k minutes would cost $56, which means teams with 12 or more devs who are using the full 10k minutes will be better off. Smaller teams using more than 10k will be worse off.

It’s probably great news for the vast majority of teams.

replies(1): >>Shank+561
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29. oaiey+IZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 21:34:38
>>sdesol+NK
Oh sorry, I guess they did not. But their offerings are not really compelling outside AWS deployment.
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30. Shank+561[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 22:15:35
>>danpal+rN
This is only true if you're using exclusively Linux runners. If those same 7,000 minutes are on macOS, you're paying $560. On Windows, $112. At my company, we definitely use a mixture of all three for various things, so this will sting, with varying degrees, depending on how often we build new iOS, Mac, and Windows releases.
replies(1): >>colinm+Vh1
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31. yumraj+Se1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 23:27:34
>>plange+7y
Even before, but moreso after this and the current economic climate, Gitlab is not going public.

Even GitHub was never in a position to go public, that seems to be mere postering to drive valuation or attract M&A offers.

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32. colinm+Vh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-14 23:54:19
>>Shank+561
Builds on macOS and Windows already depleted your minutes credit with a multiplier (Windows 2x, macOS 10x), so this shouldn't change anything

https://help.github.com/en/github/setting-up-and-managing-bi...

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33. hn_thr+sy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 02:39:59
>>jjeaff+zj
I agree, but GitHub must fix the security nightmare that is waiting to happen with GitHub actions marketplace. Seems like this would be such an easy fix, too.
replies(1): >>pknopf+6F1
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34. bastar+rE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:41:38
>>irrati+zg
minus the infrastructure, maintenance burden, and plugin hell
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35. pknopf+6F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:51:24
>>hn_thr+sy1
Organizations can enforce that their repos use only actions that are within the repo, making the build more secure, controlled and auditable.
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36. pknopf+nF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 03:54:44
>>Gordon+rl
Blazor may not work like Web Forms, but the philosophy is similar. Abstract away the fundamentals of HTML/JS, making back-end devs feel like front-end devs.

I started my dev career a long time ago in Web Forms. I went so long without understanding HTTP POST/GET/etc that it harmed me.

Anyone remember UpdatePanel? AjaxControlToolkit? Blazor gives me the same feelings.

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37. chairm+uS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 06:27:59
>>maniga+Ig
It's all about the ease of use. Manually setting up CI/CD is _hard_ and requires a team to maintain and support it. Whether through a home-rolled Jenkins deployment or Buildkite.
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38. kovac+tW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 07:26:22
>>Someon+fv
Uh, have you used SignalR over web sockets? From a performance point of view its going to be much better than Http based polling. Which should make a different when we are talking about updating the UI.
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39. skoski+KF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-15 14:36:33
>>jedber+j7
God, I hope not. I like GitLab. I feel like Amazon would ruin it.
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