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1. koheri+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-03-31 23:29:45
Having worked with unions, it is because they introduce and entirely new and superfluous bureaucratic hierarchy to a company.

I have had situations where it was not allowed to move a computer monitor from one cube to another - that had to be done by a union employee. Literally taking a unused spare monitor from one desk, and putting it on another employees desk where it was need. ...and there was a formal requisition process to get that done which took two weeks to get through approvals, assignment, and finally have it done.

I have had union workers walk off the job during a major system outage because their facility managers forced them to take their break time. The whole company was down - it was all-hands-on-deck outage due to Hurricane Sandy. The actual union workers wanted to help us get the systems back online for the company, but the union rep wouldn't let them work.

I have had great workers quit or refuse jobs with our company because they knew and loathed the union - not the company, but the UNION.

I don't have any problem with unions at companies that protect the SAFETY of workers, as they are needed in various industrial jobs. ...but at a TECH companies where workers are making six figures, have matched 401k plans, and safe and comfortable desk jobs? ...it just screams "ridiculous" to me.

replies(8): >>droopy+L1 >>fzeror+U4 >>Pfhrea+05 >>unlink+s7 >>projek+Fd >>readme+zi >>LeoTin+Si >>TheBob+Yp
2. droopy+L1[view] [source] 2020-03-31 23:41:18
>>koheri+(OP)
Superfluous might not be the right word.

The union is not superfluous to the employees- it is the only thing negotiating on their behalf in a power-imbalanced, often exploitative situation.

The union is not superfluous to the employer- it is actually a hostile counterparty in terms of wages and exploitation.

Thats not to say the added bureaucracy is always welcomed- it sucks.

3. fzeror+U4[view] [source] 2020-04-01 00:09:38
>>koheri+(OP)
> I have had situations where it was not allowed to move a computer monitor from one cube to another - that had to be done by a union employee

Can you explain to me where this is a union thing? Like I'd honestly like you to point out and explain your logic why this is specifically because of a union.

The reason why I bring this up is because I have encountered the same issues at my prior jobs which were non-union. Literally the exact same issue, where I was not allowed to move a computer monitor because it had to be done by another department after submitting a formal request.

I feel like people tend to blame unions for everything and yet I see the exact same shit people blame unions for at my non-union jobs. Is that because of an invisible union? Is there something I'm missing?

replies(2): >>drdead+Ic >>frabbi+Zh
4. Pfhrea+05[view] [source] 2020-04-01 00:10:18
>>koheri+(OP)
You can use asterisks around a word for emphasis, it reads less like you are yelling.

Some reasons to have unions at tech companies:

IP restrictions, unpaid oncall/overtime, crunch, getting a larger cut of the wealth they produce, better parental/health/timeoff benefits, having a representative in disciplinary hearings, requiring clear salary and performance processes, and about a half dozen other ideas.

You can disagree that these are real concerns at tech companies, but they are not ridiculous.

replies(1): >>tekkni+O04
5. unlink+s7[view] [source] 2020-04-01 00:33:00
>>koheri+(OP)
I've seen the same thing. Most recently at a trade show.

That said unions help more than they hurt, in my opinion. It's also pointless to paint all unions with the same brush like that, you worked with a group of people that had bad management. That's can happen in any organization, not just unions.

Not they're not all great all the time but I think the Hollywood unions are something we as tech workers could model ourselves after. You still negotiate your own salary and such but certain benefits like pension/retirement/healthcare (which are great at scale but hurt employers and employees at smaller businesses) can be amalgamated across the membership.

Like for example just a couple years ago the writers unions got into a spat with their agents over double dipping with production companies and not representing the interests of their clients. That kind of bargaining power can be wielded to fix institutional problems across an industry, but it doesn't have to come at the cost of individual gains - the writers still negotiate their own compensation and sign their own deals.

Unions can be a great way for industries to self regulate imo.

replies(2): >>danthe+gc >>icelan+Lr
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6. danthe+gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 01:21:17
>>unlink+s7
They're also a great way to keep out competition - see hollywood union requirements for membership. They limit the competition.
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7. drdead+Ic[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 01:28:48
>>fzeror+U4
I experienced this "move a monitor" scenario myself whilst I was working at a DoD contractor company. I had to move cubicles and moved my stuff myself. My boss noticed and told me I couldn't move my monitor or docking station... but everything else I could. So I had to move my monitor and docking station back down to my old cubicle so that a few days later the "correct people" could move the items back up for me.

Why is this a union thing? No idea. Is it real? Yes.

Perhaps somebody is enjoying some popcorn watching an unending battle between "the invisible hand of the free market" and "an invisible union".

8. projek+Fd[view] [source] 2020-04-01 01:41:36
>>koheri+(OP)
We could change our labor law to organize new unions on the Japanese or German models where nobody questions their legitimacy but instead we have this late 19th century model and the corporations act the part. Well I suppose they can’t call in mercenaries in a strike.
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9. frabbi+Zh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 02:38:23
>>fzeror+U4
Absolutely. Had exactly this issue with wanting to move monitors just 3 weeks ago in a company where a previous union drive failed and had a lot of people spouting this sort of hoary, old cliche.
10. readme+zi[view] [source] 2020-04-01 02:46:08
>>koheri+(OP)
I think we're talking about amazon warehouse workers. I absolutely agree and I would loathe having to work in such an environment but when your job is put the package on the truck as fast as you can a union is a very nice thing to have.
11. LeoTin+Si[view] [source] 2020-04-01 02:49:44
>>koheri+(OP)
But how do you temper managements abuses for lower waged work though?

If only there was some sort of system to enforce laws. Oh wait, that only exists in a perfect world where a government actually cares about your rights...

Honestly I get it on both sides, but I really think the union has to be a jerk. It's annoying to most small independent types or middle management areas, but the people in the union need that type of power to influence the BS corporate hierarchy of exploitation to absurd degrees. It's fine to be exploited, it's annoying when the company will drop you in a heartbeat because some minor issue thats come up. If we had laws that at least made it easier for employees to exert their rights (through agencies that the government didn't short change like they love to do) we would have no need for unions. Culturally it'd be a precedent that management can't be dicks.

12. TheBob+Yp[view] [source] 2020-04-01 04:06:28
>>koheri+(OP)
Please name one Amazon Warehouse stock picker or forklift operator who is making 6 figures please. Also, where are all these tech workers making 6 figures at? BLS OES Job wage data shows about 80% of tech workers don't make 6 figures. The ones that do are in cities where $90k is the poverty line ffs.

Management can choose to share profit fairly in a keep what you catch manner so everyone's interests are aligned, and report accounting fairly, to the whole company.

Or Management can choose to do what Bezos did and ruin the retail market by selling at a loss for 2 decades while playing guile and psyop games with the public; he owns washington post BTW. Amazon is terrified of unions because that means they can't be profitable. Agriculture, Warehousing and logistics are major employers of illegal alien labor; the way Bezos makes money is by undercutting brick and morter retailers' supply chain costs because he doesn't have to hire anyone to run a store.

The reason unions form is management gets abusive; this pandemic is one such instance.

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13. icelan+Lr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 04:23:45
>>unlink+s7
>> Hollywood unions are something we as tech workers could model ourselves after

That's a guild, not a union. And sure, it's good. As long as you don't care about people that aren't in it right now. SAG does their very best to keep new entrants out.

replies(1): >>Pfhrea+fi1
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14. Pfhrea+fi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 14:31:16
>>icelan+Lr
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. SAG-AFTRA is a labor union and a member of the AFL-CIO.

And they don't work to keep new entrants out. Union workplaces do prefer to hire union members, but if they can't then they'll work to get someone enrolled in the union.

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15. tekkni+O04[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 14:31:35
>>Pfhrea+05
How does overtime / unpaid time work with salary workers? How much will the union take from my pay? Any amount is unacceptable given the current tax climate. Honestly it sounds like you just need a better company if you have these concerns. I work for the exact company in this article and we have all of these things you listed.
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