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[parent] [thread] 26 comments
1. Mizza+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:22:31
Whenever there is anti-Amazon or pro-Union discussion, the first comment on HN will always be siding with management. Why is that?

This obviously an illegal retaliatory firing. Amazon is running domestic sweatshops where they don't even provide basic PPE during a global pandemic, and he was the leader trying to get that gear.

Seriously - what goes through the head of somebody who posts a comment siding with management in a situation like this? I literally can't understand why you'd think to post something like this, unless you're an Amazon executive or shareholder and only care about short term face/profit. Otherwise - why the reactionary take?

I just find this level of obedience to authority baffling. It's endemic in the United States, which otherwise prides itself on it's "maverick" status - except when it comes to shocking levels of obedience and servitude to the police and to market forces.

EDIT: I looked up this user and he is an Amazon employee, which explains this bizarre take. Given Amazon's policy of paying employees to say nice things about the company online, even when they work in unrelated departments, I think we should seriously consider warning/banning users who engage in astroturfing for their employers on HackerNews.

replies(6): >>jlmort+62 >>throwa+m2 >>superh+G2 >>Hokusa+Z4 >>ertemp+fh >>dang+e02
2. jlmort+62[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:33:27
>>Mizza+(OP)
> Amazon is running domestic sweatshops where they don't even provide basic PPE during a global pandemic

It doesn't help your argument to frame it in hyperbolic terms. Amazon pays a minimum wage of $15/hour, every warehouse is air conditioned, they now offer paid time off to every worker who works >20 hours a week, they have substantial career advancement training and education benefits, they have health benefits and matching 401k program, 20 weeks paid parental leave.

I mean, come on. There might be some legitimate problems, but when you call it a sweatshop, you've already lost the argument.

replies(3): >>me_me_+n4 >>Mizza+K4 >>galkk+z9
3. throwa+m2[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:34:39
>>Mizza+(OP)
It's not so much obedience to authority as identification with it. "Temporarily embarrassed millionaires", etc. Why be surprised to see it so strongly expressed on a site explicitly meant for millionaires seeking to disembarrass themselves?
replies(1): >>cmrdpo+vc
4. superh+G2[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:35:58
>>Mizza+(OP)
>what goes through the head of somebody who posts a comment siding with management in a situation like this?

They identify with management, because they want to be there one day. They see themselves on "the side" of the managers and those in control, and try to view things from that perspective.

It's the same reason you have poor voters who support tax cuts for the rich, even if those tax cuts mean the government can materially do less for them. They don't perceive themselves as users of the welfare state, but as soon-to-be wealthy folks.

replies(3): >>pmoria+24 >>nv-vn+g6 >>toaste+cl
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5. pmoria+24[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 16:43:07
>>superh+G2
HN is full of owners, founders, board members, executives, and managers.

Their view is well represented here.

replies(1): >>ForHac+rb
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6. me_me_+n4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 16:45:09
>>jlmort+62
and they have employees pissing into bottles because toilet breaks are limited/timed/monitored.

I mean, come on. What would take for you to piss into bottle at your work instead of going to toilet.

replies(3): >>bbarn+L6 >>stoops+u7 >>gamblo+bd
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7. Mizza+K4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 16:46:58
>>jlmort+62
There's a pandemic and they're not giving masks and gloves to their workers, which has already caused a number of them to be hospitalized. That's why they're organizing.

Instead of giving them safety gear, they've fired the lead organizer.

They only reason they have any of the rights and conditions you described in the first place is because of organization and agitation, not their generosity.

The end result of letting authoritarian capitalism into the global marketplace can be seen in the conditions of Amazon warehouses in the United States. I'm certainly not the only person to say this, their own employees do as well. Hint - that's why they're organizing.[1]

BUT - more to the point - why post this? Are you an Amazon employee as well? If not - why? I just can't fathom in a situation like this why you'd feel the need to list - from memory? - all of the employee benefits that Amazon provides to its warehouse workers.

[1] https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/amazon-warehouses-are-cult-lik...

replies(1): >>Throwa+Y9
8. Hokusa+Z4[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:48:44
>>Mizza+(OP)
It is a known fact that Amazon instructs its employees to manipulate on-line communities: https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/23/what-is-this-weird-twitter...
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9. nv-vn+g6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 16:54:36
>>superh+G2
I don't see how you can take any other view when we showed up to work after being put under quarantine. From the article it doesn't seem like he disputes the claim, he just implies that they wouldn't have fired him if he wasn't organizing a strike. If you're running a massive shipping operation with hundreds of thousands of employees and millions of customers you should be taking steps to guarantee their safety. Beyond Amazon, the US could not afford to have the company shut down because of a COVID-19 infection spreading through their fulfillment centers. It seems ridiculous to say that he could show up to work despite being put on quarantine. Maybe there are missing facts in the case, but with that information I think most people would defend Amazon's actions.
replies(1): >>pwinns+Ld
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10. bbarn+L6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 16:57:29
>>me_me_+n4
No other job paying as well as the one I had for the skills I had, and a bottle.
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11. stoops+u7[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:00:46
>>me_me_+n4
Who cares what one person out of 500,000 did one time in 2018?
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12. galkk+z9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:11:43
>>jlmort+62
>20 weeks paid parental leave

20 weeks maternity leave, and that for mothers who were with Amazon for > 1 year (I believe it was 4 week pre-delivery and 16 weeks after). For fathers it was 12 weeks, at least until last December.

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13. Throwa+Y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:14:00
>>Mizza+K4
> "they're not giving masks and gloves to their workers"

There aren't any masks and gloves available to anyone.

> "Are you an Amazon employee as well?"

Just a reminder that that sort of question violates the HN guidelines.

replies(1): >>luckyl+ig
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14. ForHac+rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:22:06
>>pmoria+24
That must be the case. Because otherwise it would be sad and pathetic to have a whole forum full of wannabes sitting around playing pretend running companies and worrying about equity dilution and gossiping about minutia in the lives of wealthy venture capitalists. That would be just unbelievably tragic, right?
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15. cmrdpo+vc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:27:15
>>throwa+m2
But it's a wider phenomenon than HN. North American (well, especially Americans... up here in Canada maybe less so) culture in general prides itself on its relative distrust and distaste for government, and talks big about opposition to authoritarianism -- but fails to recognize corporations as having said authority, and they often get carte blanche.
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16. gamblo+bd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:30:38
>>me_me_+n4
Amazon pays very well for an entry-level job. Yes, work conditions suck compared to white-collar work. Many blue-collar jobs do, especially now that the 6-figure blue collar factory jobs have all but disappeared.

But that's the price you pay for a job that has no requirements beyond being able to use your hands.

replies(2): >>zentig+9t >>nabnob+5J
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17. pwinns+Ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:33:11
>>nv-vn+g6
They ordered him under quarantine more than two weeks after he was exposed (outside of guidelines), and days after he stated he would be leading a strike.

It's not like the guy was violating a reasonable quarantine; he was violating a retaliatory silencing "quarantine" outside of guidelines.

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18. luckyl+ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 17:44:55
>>Throwa+Y9
> There aren't any masks and gloves available to anyone.

I mean, for N95, maybe. Surgical masks you can buy from China. On Amazon. They'll ship by air mail, but I'm sure Amazon could get them even quicker.

19. ertemp+fh[view] [source] 2020-03-31 17:47:57
>>Mizza+(OP)
Apologies for the apparent astroturfing. I do work for Amazon but everything I post on social media is 100% my personal opinion. Nobody from work has ever asked me to do anything on social media to make the company look better.

Having said that, my opinions are a little more pro-corporate than most of the commenters here due to my personal experience.

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20. toaste+cl[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 18:07:52
>>superh+G2
> It's the same reason you have poor voters who support tax cuts for the rich, even if those tax cuts mean the government can materially do less for them. They don't perceive themselves as users of the welfare state, but as soon-to-be wealthy folks.

FWIW, this is a really patronizing view of poor people. An alternative hypothesis is that some people vote based on principles, whether it personally benefits them or not.

replies(1): >>sudosy+4A
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21. zentig+9t[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 18:45:12
>>gamblo+bd
"Sire! The peasants are revolting!"

"Yeah, they're really disgusting on ice, aren't they?"

Amazon will keep exploiting everyone they can until they are sued and independently monitored into compliance. Go ahead and pretend all those benefits are the result of Amazon management realizing on their own that they can be good to their people. Every one is either settlements, PR dusting, or mandatory after being caught at prior abuses.

No respect for anyone at Amazon who drinks or spouts the company kool-aid.

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22. sudosy+4A[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 19:23:21
>>toaste+cl
I don't know that it's necessarily a patronizing view. I know a lot of people that do sincerely believe that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires, despite all facts pointing to the idea that they are not.
replies(1): >>danthe+yu1
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23. nabnob+5J[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-03-31 20:12:18
>>gamblo+bd
Who decides whether blue collar workers deserve bathroom breaks? Why do you treat the free market as the sole authority on what working conditions people "deserve"?

You're arguing that shaving off a couple minutes a day is worth the loss of human dignity that these workers experience.

replies(1): >>me_me_+mt2
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24. danthe+yu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 02:06:10
>>sudosy+4A
So rich people in favor of higher taxes are voting against their own interests why?

There are many people that don't see the government as an ATM machine, and think that its role should be limited.

25. dang+e02[view] [source] 2020-04-01 08:52:42
>>Mizza+(OP)
I appreciate your concern for the integrity of the threads, but you've done two things here that we don't allow. You can't bring someone else's personal information and use it as ammunition in an argument like that. It's a form of personal attack, which is not ok. Also, you broke the site guidelines by making accusations of astroturfing without evidence. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.

The abuses you're worried about are real in principle. The problem is, internet users are a thousand (nay, a million) times too quick to become aggressive about them, which ends up causing a lot more harm than the things they're fighting.

In particular, (1) most people are posting in good faith, even if they happen to be defending their employers; and (2) most internet comments about astroturfing have no foundation. On that last point: if you saw as much data on this as we do, you'd be shocked at how made up and imaginary they are; having studied this closely for years, I can tell you that it's nearly 100% projection. In both of these cases, the putative cures causes more harm than the putative diseases.

The point about not attacking people because of their employers is particularly important. HN has members working for lots of different employers, and one's work tends to be the thing one knows the most about. The last thing we want on this site is a climate of hostility to disincentivize people from posting to threads where they might know something. I'm not talking about this thread (which I haven't read), I'm saying that in general, it's a super bad tradeoff to tolerate this sort of soft-doxxing on HN, so we don't.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Oh and by the way: HN has reams of anti-Amazon discussion and pro-union discussion. Indeed the top comment on the current thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22739059) is a counterexample to what you're saying, and meanwhile the comment you were complaining about was highly downvoted. Such perceptions of HN being biased against one's view are notoriously unreliable; the people who hold opposite views see the community as biased in just the opposite way, and are just as sure about it. You (I don't mean you personally, but all of us) can't trust your ad hoc observations about this, because your pre-existing opinions condition what you notice and how strongly you weight it. It is a well-known cognitive bias, a flaw that we all suffer from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

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26. me_me_+mt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-01 14:17:03
>>nabnob+5J
That's the problem with economies at scale, a bathroom break for small store owner is not an issue. When you have 1000's of stores its a massive saving area, where its much easier to justify pissing bottles. Any small trivial thing at scale can cost or save huge amounts money.

And when we talk huge sums of money, morality often is tossed out of the window first.

replies(1): >>jlmort+9A4
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27. jlmort+9A4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-02 06:47:41
>>me_me_+mt2
You're suggesting that for a small business, because the value of five minutes of a single employee's time is trifling, the small business does not care to regulate bathroom breaks.

I don't really see it that way. In my view, small businesses abuse their employees just dramatically more than large businesses.

For a small business, a single employee may be the only person working the till. The employee simply won't be allowed to go to the bathroom at all except during designated times.

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