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[parent] [thread] 35 comments
1. wpietr+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-12-06 23:45:31
Another dimension to consider: if it's good, how long is it good for?

I just got done writing a long thread on the history of 3D as a novelty: https://twitter.com/williampietri/status/1203074623232851970

But the basic summary is that since the 1850s, people keep coming up with exciting 3D innovations that sell lots of units for a while, but that never make much of a difference. Stereoscopic 3D is interesting and fun; we all loved our ViewMasters. But once the novelty wore off, we put it on a shelf and rarely picked it up again. The ViewMaster is basically a slinky for our eyeballs.

I've talked with quite a number of people who have bought VR systems, and I have yet to find one who uses it with the sort of frequency that people use their gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, or phones to play games. Maybe this wave of innovation will eventually take face-mounted VR from "novelty" to "daily driver", but it doesn't sound like it's here yet.

replies(7): >>earthb+Z1 >>Baeocy+nc >>sytelu+eg >>greggm+vh >>andyba+oy >>DonHop+iE >>tinus_+jd3
2. earthb+Z1[view] [source] 2019-12-07 00:05:07
>>wpietr+(OP)
FWIW, I left the 3D turned on with my 3DS, but I recognize that I was in the minority. I liked the 3D well enough, but OTOH I don’t really miss it on the Switch.
3. Baeocy+nc[view] [source] 2019-12-07 02:20:25
>>wpietr+(OP)
>I've talked with quite a number of people who have bought VR systems, and I have yet to find one who uses it with the sort of frequency that people use their gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, or phones to play games. Maybe this wave of innovation will eventually take face-mounted VR from "novelty" to "daily driver", but it doesn't sound like it's here yet.

I pretty much fully agree with your assessment, with the caveat that I've seen a lot of folks really getting in to their Oculus Quests in a way that never happened for the tethered unit. I'm certain many would spend even more time using it if there was a larger software library.

(And yes, the success of the Quest genuinely surprised me, too. Having now gotten to play with one, I have to say tetherless with good controllers is the biggest single improvement in VR since the first modern headset.)

replies(1): >>henrik+xi
4. sytelu+eg[view] [source] 2019-12-07 03:25:51
>>wpietr+(OP)
You are confusing tech deficiency for the lack of interest. Imagine if the tech was available so you can see 3D content covering the entire human FOV in 8K resolution that with almost no weight on the head just for $500, would you not buy it and use it full time? Things have came long way and still long way to go but our biological construction demands 3D tech and it's not going to change anytime soon.
replies(1): >>wpietr+Fk
5. greggm+vh[view] [source] 2019-12-07 03:49:52
>>wpietr+(OP)
Well then you can come meet me and about 150 other friends.

I pretty much play VR only at this point. Any time I try a typical flat screen 3D game something is missing. The frustration of having a camera stick. The boringness of having to "press the action button" instead of just reaching out and touch the thing I'm supposed to interact it. And of course most of all the feeling of "presence". The Citadel on the horizon in HL2 (old reference sorry) is a pretty picture but nothing more. The volcano in Farpoint is 3 miles high with a 15 mile high plumb of smoke and I feel that as though I was there. It's like a picture of the grand canyon vs actually being at the grand canyon. They aren't comparable and I can't go back to not feeling like "being there".

This isn't a "gimmick" like 3D movies where they stick things in your face or throw stuff at you just show off the tech. It's qualitatively different.

If there was more content I was interested in I'd spent even more time in VR. Unfortunately there isn't that much AAA VR content and worse for me I can't take horror in VR, it's way to intense, so I probably won't be able to play the new VR Half Life coming out in March.

VR today is like an Apple Newton in 1993. Everyone laughed. Heck in 2007 PDAs where just for geeks. Then in 2008 Apple's PDA shipped, the iPhone, and now everyone has a PDA in their pocket to the point that's you'd be considered strange not to have one. It might be a while, it might even be another 15 years but VR will happen. It's just too compelling when it's good.

replies(3): >>wpietr+tl >>tripzi+vx >>taloft+RJ
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6. henrik+xi[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:09:06
>>Baeocy+nc
Yeah, I got to try the Quest as well, and it's what the experience should be like. No cables, no beacons, no markers, no nothing.

But the resolution and framerate is too weak right now. Needs 8K in 60fps, so it's just a matter of time.

replies(2): >>papa_b+Jj >>andyba+Ty
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7. papa_b+Jj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:29:41
>>henrik+xi
Hopefully more than 60fps :) It's currently 72fps, and the Index is 120/144, which sounds close to ideal. I've been pretty happy with the Quest's 72 for now though.
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8. wpietr+Fk[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 04:50:41
>>sytelu+eg
I don't think I would. I already have the experience of immersion with current screens. I don't think strapping screens to my face will improve anything. And given the metaphorical and literal headaches of trying to fool the human vision system, I don't expect that I'd enjoy anything in the facehugger category.

This might change for me if we could bypass the eyeballs and the limbs, of course.

replies(1): >>andyba+6z
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9. wpietr+tl[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 05:06:07
>>greggm+vh
I'm glad to hear there are a few people happy with the current stuff. But I'll note that in the 1990s wave of VR there were people who would talk exactly like this. It was amazing; they loved it; the tech and content wasn't there yet, but surely in 10 or 20 years, we'd all be spending all our time immersed. And I'll note that James Cameron, director of Avatar, has essentially the same belief about 3D movies: https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2428530/the-problem-3d-has-...

I'm still unconvinced. And I'll note that plenty of people get the feeling of presence from novels, from comic books, from movies, from games. Getting lost in a world isn't a property of technology. It's something humans have been doing since we were telling stories around a campfire.

When we want that, that is. As you say, we just as often want distance from our experiences. And quite often we're indifferent to immersion; it's not material to the experience we seek. Movie tickets sales are down 25% since 2000. That might be in part because some people have fancy home theaters that are nearly as good, the at-home 100" screen with 7.1 sound. But I think it's mostly because people are happy watching things on laptops and tablets and phones. They mostly don't want to "be there", however much that horrifies the Martin Scorseses of the world.

replies(1): >>lonela+lW
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10. tripzi+vx[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 09:35:27
>>greggm+vh
> The boringness of having to "press the action button" instead of just reaching out and touch the thing I'm supposed to interact it.

but "reaching out" in VR equates to waving around a VR wand in space and pressing buttons on it, I'm not sure what's the difference?

replies(2): >>andyba+3z >>XorNot+HH
11. andyba+oy[view] [source] 2019-12-07 09:54:03
>>wpietr+(OP)
> I have yet to find one who uses it with the sort of frequency that people use their gaming consoles, PCs, laptops, or phones to play games.

Part of the problem the industry has with VR is unrealistic measures of success.

Does VR really have to be used with the same frequency we use consoles and have sales as high as smart phones to be considered not a novelty?

There's a huge gap between "another duffer like 3D TV" and "the new iPhone"

replies(1): >>wpietr+G91
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12. andyba+Ty[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 09:59:51
>>henrik+xi
As someone else pointed out the framerate is already way past 60Hz.

But is resolution that important? If had to list the areas where VR needed improvement it would be fairly low down my list. I'd put comfort and FOV higher and improving the screen door effect would also probably trump resolution.

But I think none of these things are deal-breakers. Content is king as they say. Previous new media have not been held back by quality issues. Early consoles didn't suddenly leap into mass adoption when the graphics improved. Cinema didn't mature when film stock got better. It was content and people's awareness that changed.

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13. andyba+3z[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 10:03:16
>>tripzi+vx
Your hands are in the same physical location as the object you're interacting with. It removes one of the planks of artificiality and improves the chance your brain will stop signalling that experience isn't real.

I don't entirely agree with OP. I enjoy VR even when it uses the gamepad. If the iteractions have a good "in-game" explanation - no matter how far-fetched - then your brain will stop raising the alarm. So if the game gives a good justification for pushing buttons in-world then that will do the trick.

replies(1): >>tripzi+RX
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14. andyba+6z[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 10:05:03
>>wpietr+Fk
Although VR is technically "strapping screens to your face" that description doesn't do justice to the actual experience. I sense from your jocular put-downs the scepticism of someone that hasn't tried modern VR. Would I be correct?
replies(1): >>wpietr+H81
15. DonHop+iE[view] [source] 2019-12-07 11:40:51
>>wpietr+(OP)
Hey wait, I thought "Goofy Droopy Glasses" were a slinky for our eyeballs.

http://www.houseofrave.com/goofy-slinky-eyeball-glasses.html

replies(1): >>wpietr+3z2
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16. XorNot+HH[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 12:41:02
>>tripzi+vx
I feel like you probably haven't tried VR? The thing about VR is put someone who doesn't understand video games or any of the metaphors people who grow up with them understand, and in something like the HTC Vive they'll still just "get it". People almost immediately start walking around and trying to touch things, pick things up etc.

The biggest problem with VR is headset bulk, and space. Lighter headsets will make a huge difference. Finding a way to give people more raw space to play in will make a huge difference.

replies(1): >>tripzi+YN
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17. taloft+RJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 13:09:13
>>greggm+vh
This reads like someone who has had VR for a limited time. Yes, it’s very impressive at first, and people write posts like these. After a few years, many realize that the resolution is low, the headsets are uncomfortable, and the experiences are limited. It still has a long way to go. I do agree that it can happen, but it needs to be much better, similar to the state of AR,
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18. tripzi+YN[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 14:16:30
>>XorNot+HH
I did try VR a few times. And no I didn't like it. I had a lot of trouble with the controls, these wand things and the buttons on it. I'm also not comfortable with regular console controllers, so maybe that's it. But my main problem is that any time I tried it I got overstimulated super quickly and it just made me very annoyed and in a bad mood. It's healthier for me to avoid situations like that.

On the other hand, if the controls were actually like "reach out and touch the thing" (which they just aren't because you're holding things that only signify interaction), I might have felt better about it. Not sure, because so far all VR has made me feel completely helpless wrt the controls.

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19. lonela+lW[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 15:54:56
>>wpietr+tl
Cameron made a great 3D movie that spawned a generation of shitty counterfeit imitations. That article is about how Cameron feels 3D cinema was poisoned by a glut of cheap fake 3D, and he wants real 3D tech to develop so people stop faking it, and he wants a no glasses solution. Is he wrong?

People always had TV. Obviously home viewing is winning because it's getting better and it's much cheaper and more convenient.

replies(1): >>wpietr+f81
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20. tripzi+RX[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 16:12:01
>>andyba+3z
> Your hands are in the same physical location as the object you're interacting with.

But, they literally aren't. The object is in virtual space, and your hands are interacting with two controllers (wands) that you cannot see and this interaction is then translated to control the virtual space.

I suppose, with practice they would become more of an extension of yourself? But that's not what I assume what was meant with "having to press the action button instead of just reaching out and touch the thing". Maybe the VR I tried just had really shitty controllers?

replies(2): >>andyba+5d2 >>wpietr+oS2
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21. wpietr+f81[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 18:04:14
>>lonela+lW
I believe he is wrong. Sure, it's possible that Cameron is the only person who can make a good 3D movie. But the explanation that's more consistent with the history of 3D is that he was the person to get in early and ride the novelty wave. Once the novelty wore off, people stopped bothering.

It's true that home viewing is winning because it's more convenient. But my point is that it's obviously worse in terms of viewer experience and the technical qualities that VR proponents believe will finally lead to VR success.

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22. wpietr+H81[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 18:09:49
>>andyba+6z
I have not tried the very latest generation, but I have tried previous generations. For me, it's really amazing/engaging/compelling for a while. And once the novelty wears off, it's not. I've also tried creating my own VR content and it's the same deal when I test it on people: really neat the first time, but interest quickly declines.
replies(1): >>andyba+Tc2
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23. wpietr+G91[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-07 18:20:05
>>andyba+oy
Is there a gap there? I mean, sure, I see it conceptually, but I don't see a market gap.

Look at movies as an example. When sound came along, it basically destroyed the market for silent film. Same deal for color film. But 3D has come and gone at least twice, bumping along as a novelty in between.

I think it's going to be even more true of VR, in that doing good VR content is a) difficult, and b) a pretty different process than most non-VR content. One of the VR fans in this thread was bemoaning the lack of AAA VR content in particular. But nobody's going to be making that content unless the market is large enough to support it.

replies(1): >>andyba+rd2
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24. andyba+Tc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 13:17:08
>>wpietr+H81
> I have not tried the very latest generation, but I have tried previous generations.

Just to clarify - you mean VR with 6DOF tracking of head and controllers? Vive, Rift, Quest, Windows MR etc.

Or something else? For me this is the minimum bar to being "truly interesting VR". Everything before that was just a novelty in my view.

replies(1): >>wpietr+Uz2
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25. andyba+5d2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 13:20:29
>>tripzi+RX
When you're in VR the space that matters to you is mostly the virtual space. If you move a controler and some representation of that controller matches it's position exactly then you feel that is where your hand is. The fact that your hands are invisible is quickly forgotten. (Fake avatar hands can often actually reduce immersion - uncanny valley time...)

It's similar to tool use. Tools become an extension of your body and you tend to perceive them as such. Musicians, sportsmen etc are familiar with this feeling.

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26. andyba+rd2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 13:25:32
>>wpietr+G91
I think there is a market gap. Even without AAA games, even without a mass-market presence, VR is a genuinely new medium and there will always be enough people fascinated by it to for content to keep producing.

Even if it's arty or niche content (which is fine by me) VR fills a unique role and people will want to keep experimenting with it.

Between education, arts, B2B, training etc the gaming side of VR could disappear entirely and there would still be enough usage to maintain an ecosystem. It doesn't take a huge company to design and make the hardware.

Maybe VR going underground for another decade wouldn't be such a bad thing. The tech industry might be slightly less unicorn-obsessed next time round.

replies(1): >>wpietr+Yy2
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27. wpietr+Yy2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 17:55:02
>>andyba+rd2
Could you tell me how you came to the conclusion that it doesn't take major resources to design and make the hardware? Magic Leap took $2 billion. Occulus, $3 billion.

I do agree that there's enough revenue in novelty that content can keep happening. 3D books are still coming out this year, more than 150 years after the initial wave of hype: https://www.amazon.com/Queen-3-D-Bohemian-Rhapsody-2019/dp/1...

But I don't think there's enough evidence to demonstrate that any of those VR uses you suggest will be sustainable businesses after this wave of hype fails. Sure, people will tinker, and I think that's great.

But the most I expect to be happening 10 years from now in VR hardware is the Cardboard-style "let's put a phone on your face" thing. With perhaps a side of "VR as amusement park ride", like today: https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here/tours-and-expe...

And if that's all you're expecting, that's fine by me. My issue with VR is the enormous wave of hype around it.

replies(1): >>andyba+FF2
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28. wpietr+3z2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 17:55:47
>>DonHop+iE
Fair point. I regret the error, and appreciate the correction.
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29. wpietr+Uz2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 18:07:11
>>andyba+Tc2
That's great, and I'll certainly try them when I get the chance. But please understand that every time there's a new generation of hardware somebody tells me that this time is different for 3D. And have done since the 1990s.

And I'll note that I've believed that myself as long as my use of the platform is modest enough that it stays novel. So what I'm really looking for here is what I look for when evaluating most new products: proof of sustained use by a broad audience.

My personal experience with a new product doesn't tell me a lot. There are things I personally love that never take off, and there are things I don't like that end up being wildly popular. The evidence that will tell me VR has actually arrived is when it's good enough that people stop using their TVs or their Switches or their gaming PC. Or, heck, use it 20+ hours a week at the office, letting their laptops gather dust. And not just the ~3% of the people who are technophiles, the people who absolutely loved their Google Glass. But at a minimum, people in the ~15% group of early adopters, with usage starting to leak into the early mainstream group.

replies(1): >>andyba+sF2
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30. andyba+sF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 19:02:00
>>wpietr+Uz2
> But please understand that every time there's a new generation of hardware somebody tells me that this time is different for 3D.

VR != 3D. 3D is only a small part of what makes VR compelling.

And it's hard for me to pass judgement on what other people have told you. I only know that 6DOF for me was the game changer. And I've been around the block a few times myself.

I'm still curious about what VR you have tried. I'd like to know what your benchmark is.

replies(1): >>wpietr+ura
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31. andyba+FF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 19:04:00
>>wpietr+Yy2
> Could you tell me how you came to the conclusion that it doesn't take major resources to design and make the hardware?

God knows how ML spent $2 billion. Where did you get the figures on Oculus? Is that their spend or how much Facebook spent on them?

My source is the fact that multiple relatively small companies have brought VR headsets to market and that there are viable open hardware projects to do the same.

> My issue with VR is the enormous wave of hype around it.

Then we agree. My fear is the hype and the associated snipe will kill a fascinating new medium before it's had a chance to mature.

replies(1): >>wpietr+vv3
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32. wpietr+oS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 21:06:35
>>tripzi+RX
I think a similar thing happens with all tools. The same happens with game controllers, mice, keyboards, etc. While you're getting to know them, they're weird and unfamiliar. And then once you're really used to them, they vanish. When I'm typing a comment, I'm not thinking about fingers or QWERTY. I'm immersed in what I'm doing.

Which is certainly an argument that people get used to VR controllers. But I think it's also an argument against VR being particularly special in terms of immersion.

replies(1): >>andyba+IU2
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33. andyba+IU2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-08 21:30:05
>>wpietr+oS2
> But I think it's also an argument against VR being particularly special in terms of immersion.

Or rather, it's an argument against 6DOF controllers being central to VR immersion. I think they make a difference albeit a small one.

Actual physical hand tracking is wonderfully immersive but hits other snags. No haptic feedback and tracking limitations. For some scenarious however it's a step forward.

(You need to design interactions around the controller limitations. Current VR experiences are too enamoured of the novelty and give the user too much freedom. Immersion comes from carefully stage managing the experience to avoid those things that sign-post the artificiality)

34. tinus_+jd3[view] [source] 2019-12-09 00:46:45
>>wpietr+(OP)
A lot of people complain about it but I like the 3D effect on the (new) Nintendo 3DS a lot, even after using it for quite a while.
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35. wpietr+vv3[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-09 06:11:25
>>andyba+FF2
Zuckerberg was the one who said $3 billion. Which doesn't count ongoing development expense for the last 3 years, but from news reports it looks to be in the billions. And apparently they're spending circa another $1 billion on VR acquisitions this year: https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/12/07/facebook-is-on-a-b...

I do believe that it doesn't cost that much to bring something VR-ish to market, as long as they're trying to replicate older hardware with commodity gear. But if they want to push the state of the art forward, I'm not shocked at all by those numbers. Apple's spending something like $15 billion a year on R&D, and billions more on acquisitions. Maybe that's unnecessary for VR, but certainly a lot of VR advocates still believe that true success requires further technical innovation.

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36. wpietr+ura[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-12-11 22:20:20
>>andyba+sF2
Well here's your chance to help me get up to date. Why system and titles should I try next? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21767363
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