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1. afarre+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-08-08 13:55:43
Something can be both an expression of privilege and a very good idea.

Example: The advice to get at least 8 hours of sleep at a regular time each night. This reflects:

- the economic privilege of not needing to do irregular shift work

- not having a chronic disease which interrupts sleep

- not being a parent

- having a regular place to sleep at all.

However, it is still a good idea for one’s physical and mental health.

Likewise, a community might reasonably decide that certain political discussions are too acrimonious to have productively. Even if this decision reflects privilege, it might be the only decision under which the community could survive without rupturing.

I feel inclined to agree with your second paragraph, but just don’t know if such discussions are actually productive.

replies(4): >>FussyZ+12 >>baddox+R4 >>Bartwe+q7 >>mruts+Yc
2. FussyZ+12[view] [source] 2019-08-08 14:08:03
>>afarre+(OP)
Well, as I said, it shouldn't be ALWAYS allowed, otherwise you have that sect of people who bring up the politics inherent in anything, and while it's true and important, it's not what HN is about or should be about.

BUT, and this is a big but here, there are a small number of discussions on HN where it can be argued that the politics involved in an issue are more important than the technology. Or, that the technology involved is actively shaping the politics related to it. Or, that the politics of those building the technology are informing the technology. And so on.

And I feel like the attitude here is one mirrored strongly in the tech industry at large, that somehow by not discussing it openly, we avoid the stains and the ugly realities of the situations we're involved in, and I'm sorry but that's just not true. Simply refusing to discuss the political angles of what we all do doesn't mean we're above it or beyond it, we're simply ignoring it, and ignoring politics can have catastrophic consequences.

replies(2): >>rhacke+q4 >>danso+ca
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3. rhacke+q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 14:23:54
>>FussyZ+12
Like 1st day of month are the hiring threads... what about on the 15th we have a very focused political debate - and no other threads are allowed to have it.

I definitely agree that tech lately is so intertwined with politics.

replies(1): >>Solace+y9
4. baddox+R4[view] [source] 2019-08-08 14:26:16
>>afarre+(OP)
This is, of course, what the word “privilege” means, both in the sociology context and in everyday language. It’s something good that is only available to certain people or groups.
5. Bartwe+q7[view] [source] 2019-08-08 14:44:41
>>afarre+(OP)
Someone pointed out to me that "this is privilege" conflates two very different ideas. It can mean "this is an unfair advantage which should be taken away", but it can also mean "this is a benefit denied to some people, and it should be shared with everyone".

To take some old settled examples: sovereign immunity was a privilege to be taken away because everyone should be accountable under the law, but voting rights were a privilege to be extended because self-determination is good regardless of race or gender. Sometimes it's obvious what people mean, but sometimes it's very useful to be explicit about what's meant. I think "keep politics out of $X" extends across both categories.

To the extent that a space affects policy on some issue, banning 'politics' effectively empowers the people who benefit from the current state of affairs. As you say, it could still have a payoff worth the cost if some concrete good is being achieved, but I think it is a cost; in an ideal world people would be free to discuss both the current state of affairs and changes they'd like to see. But when spaces are genuinely divorced from any position on an issue, it seems like a privilege to share, to give more people the freedom and resources to at least temporarily step away from problems. Issues are harder to escape or forget for the people who are directly affected, so there is a privilege there, but I don't think the people harassing "rainy day moodboard" Tumblrs to post about Yemen are actually improving anything.

I'm not sure what the perfect balance is, but I appreciate that HN rules try to uphold that distinction. There's significantly more leeway to debate politics when tech engages politics (e.g. government contracts, codes of conduct, privacy), than there is to inject non-tech political discussion simply on the grounds that it's an important topic.

replies(1): >>dragon+bD
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6. Solace+y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 15:00:16
>>rhacke+q4
What happens if on the 16th Bloomberg announces that all organizers of the protests at Google have left or been fired?

What happens if on the 17th, during a big ML conference, a prominent computer vision scientist was able to conclusively prove that x% of current facial datasets are majority white male and that this results in y% increase of false positive rates when identifying nonwhites as criminals?

What happens if on the 19th there is a report delivered by a special UN comissioned research group that issues that global warming has destroyed coral reefs in a way such that they will never recover?

What happens if on the 25th it is definitively revealed through a security report that voting machines were actively hacked to detect if the voter was registered female and made them vote for $party?

What happens if on the 1st Reuters publishes a investigative piece that explores how Microsoft has been delivering accurate censorship algorithms to China and the specific people behind it?

What happens if on the 12th a NIH paper is published unveiling definitive brain architecture differences between male, female, and nonbinary brains due to an innovative computer vision collaboration in MIT?

What happens if on the 14th a scientist who happens to be an assigned-female-at-birth nonbinary latin american publishes the definitive proof that P != NP? Also, this researcher takes 'they' pronouns, so commentors can either use "she" or "they" and both are political statements? (Or is it inappropriate to talk about the researcher and their/her work to discover this at all?)

That is to say- in the article, it was discovered that "what is political debate" turned out to itself be a political debate, because some things are obviously political, and other things are political just by existing and referring to it.

replies(1): >>nkurz+gj
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7. danso+ca[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 15:04:41
>>FussyZ+12
I think of myself (based on commenting/posting history) as more politically-inclined than the average techie, but I find HN’s mix of tech and politics to be generally good. That might be because I can go elsewhere (e.g. Twitter) to discuss more political things, and thus have an implicit preference for HN to be less political. But I’m interested in what others think would be the ideal mix?

For example, here’s the front page from a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2019-07-07

I’m on mobile so I’m only skimming, but if you sorted that day list by upvotes, the 4th most upvoted story would be the one about a new African trade coalition (450+ upvotes). There’s also a 200+ upvoted submission about FBI/ICE having access to state driver license photos. And a bunch of other sub-100 upvoted threads that are political, or aren’t explicitly tech — e.g. forest kindergarten, FCC and robocallers, the Durian King. And this doesn’t account for the tech articles in which politics are prominently discussed, e.g. anything to do with the Boeing 737 MAX.

Seems like a solid mix to me, even as at least a third of the tech-focused submissions don’t interest me (e.g. Lisp and RaptorJIT). There’s enough political content for that day that if I wanted to read only non-tech HN threads, I’d have my fill.

8. mruts+Yc[view] [source] 2019-08-08 15:23:12
>>afarre+(OP)
Wealthy people actually get less sleep than the poor for obvious reasons: their time is more valuable. They also work more hours and have less “free” time for the same reason.
replies(1): >>learc8+Ue
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9. learc8+Ue[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 15:36:42
>>mruts+Yc
The study mentioned here indicates otherwise https://www.tuck.com/the-inequality-of-sleep/

"the likelihood of short sleep increased with greater poverty"

Poor people are much more likely to work irregular shifts and night shifts, which have a serious impact on sleep.

replies(2): >>FussyZ+Jj >>mruts+js2
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10. nkurz+gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 16:07:17
>>Solace+y9
Most likely, in all these cases the story would be posted anyway and then some small minority of users who find it offensive would flag-kill it. If the moderators/vouchers disagree, the story and comments might be resurrected. Which is to say, things would work much as they do now.

The difference would be that there would be at least one day per month when unpopular opinions could be voiced without (potentially) being censored. The most important unpopular stories of the previous month would get some discussion, whereas currently they get none.

replies(1): >>Solace+Fj
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11. Solace+Fj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 16:09:43
>>nkurz+gj
Please note what I responded to was that no other threads may have such debates, so I'm not sure this would be the case.
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12. FussyZ+Jj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 16:10:09
>>learc8+Ue
And more importantly, even if the wealthy get less sleep, that's by their choice, not circumstance. A poor person loses sleep because they have 2 jobs and the shifts don't line up. A rich person loses sleep because they've taken on too much to do of their own volition, any amount of which they could abstain from with little consequence.
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13. dragon+bD[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-08 18:11:25
>>Bartwe+q7
> Someone pointed out to me that "this is privilege" conflates two very different ideas. It can mean "this is an unfair advantage which should be taken away", but it can also mean "this is a benefit denied to some people, and it should be shared with everyone".

You missed a third: “this is a product of a particular pattern of life experience which not everyone shares, and people should be mindful that it is not universal”.

IME, when a particular comment is described as coming from privilege, to the extent there is a “should” point along with the “is” point, the “should” point is about recognizing the different lived experience that the privileged comment disregards, not about resolving the difference in experience by universalizing either the privileged or unprivileged experience.

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14. mruts+js2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-09 13:21:14
>>learc8+Ue
It’s more complicated than that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861987/
replies(1): >>learc8+JU5
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15. learc8+JU5[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-08-11 09:42:34
>>mruts+js2
Your study supports my point and harms yours. From your study:

Lower income and educational attainment was associated with more sleep complaints. Employment was associated with less sleep complaints and unemployment with more.

Rates of sleep complaints in African-American, Hispanic/Latino and Asian/Other groups were similar to Whites. Lower socioeconomic status was associated with higher rates of sleep complaint.

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