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1. boulos+(OP)[view] [source] 2018-09-12 11:48:30
A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty.

With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ average wages [1]. But that’s before adjusting for purchasing power parity.

Being a single earner on minimum wage effectively guarantees you and your family will be in poverty in the US. That is effectively not true in most countries in Europe, even the poor ones. You don’t get to live well or anything, but you certainly aren’t planning on poverty.

[1] California, and San Francisco in particular, have a higher minimum wage but also higher expenses. Worse, many low-education workers are waitresses, which often have a “tipped minimum wage” as low as $2.15/hr before tips (again, San Francisco doesn’t do this, but it’s expensive to live here).

replies(9): >>welike+m1 >>sp332+42 >>mikeas+l2 >>patric+j3 >>Fellsh+e6 >>rascul+l8 >>specia+Gb >>bko+de >>dennis+Jt1
2. welike+m1[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:01:51
>>boulos+(OP)
- Why or how would the minimum wage be compared to the average wage of another country? It's the minimum.

- Agreed on the single earner families on minimum wage guaranteed to be in poverty. But, pointing somewhere else and saying "It's better there!" seems off to me. Pick a specific policy and advocate for it. Higher minimum wage? Guaranteed housing? Universal basic income?

replies(1): >>boulos+74
3. sp332+42[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:07:33
>>boulos+(OP)
Legally, employers have to make sure that wait staged are making at least minimum wage after tips, or make up the difference themselves. I've heard enforced enfircement can be lax though.
4. mikeas+l2[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:09:28
>>boulos+(OP)
Servers still have to receive the standard minimum wage. If their tips don’t bring them up to that level, their employer has to make up the difference. Of course, not all employers follow the law, but that’s the requirement.
replies(2): >>boulos+n3 >>swift5+Ff
5. patric+j3[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:16:46
>>boulos+(OP)
No minimum wage is able to remove poverty. Set it too low and it has no effect, since it will be below the price you are able to get on a free market. Set it too high and fewer jobs will be available, and thus less people are able to earn money to fight their poverty.
replies(2): >>boulos+T7 >>southe+Of
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6. boulos+n3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:17:10
>>mikeas+l2
Is that true, nationally? (I’ve heard conflicting things, and on my phone this is awfully hard to verify)
replies(3): >>ashaik+C4 >>wil421+M5 >>rascul+V6
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7. boulos+74[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:22:10
>>welike+m1
Sorry, my comment started as a reply to the comment about “better than most countries” [1] (hence the comparison).

I explicitly didn’t want to make this comment about advocating for a policy, but first to make sure we’re all on the same page: the US minimum wage isn’t enough to get by on. I should have added that a huge portion of the labor force is at or near this rate, except again I’m on my phone, so I couldn’t back that with the precise number.

Since you asked, I’m one of the Basic Income folks :).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17966080

replies(1): >>rascul+kb
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8. ashaik+C4[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:26:33
>>boulos+n3
Yes it is. See a link from the Department of Labor below.

https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

replies(1): >>boulos+M6
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9. wil421+M5[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:33:04
>>boulos+n3
I worked in restaurants for 6 years before I graduated from college. Yes it is true, if your tips + $2 something per hour doesn’t equal minimum wage you will get paid more hourly.

A lot of States (or maybe cities) have much much higher minimum wages for servers than my state. California, Las Vegas, and maybe New York pay higher than the $2.

10. Fellsh+e6[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:36:53
>>boulos+(OP)
I think you'd need stronger evidence than has ever been given that raising minimum wage concurrently raises purchasing power, _especially_ for staples. In the end, it's a feel-good solution - politically, it's hard to pass up, as a great deal of people would be very happy about seeing their paycheck get bigger, without also examining whether the prices around them are going up as well, or noticing that their coworker cohorts are thinning out.
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11. boulos+M6[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:40:48
>>ashaik+C4
Awesome, thanks! In the future, I won’t need to confuse the issue.
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12. rascul+V6[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:41:46
>>boulos+n3
It's true, but not all employers track this or are willing to pay it unless forced.
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13. boulos+T7[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 12:47:04
>>patric+j3
That’s theoretically true, but we’ve (seemingly) never come close to that in the US. Moreover, as the article reminds us, the minimum wage has been drastically higher (in real terms) than it is now.

Regardless of the correct level before causing a crowding out of employment, what do you believe the purpose of having a minimum wage is (if not to prevent poverty)? Why not just let the market decide?

Edit: I mean this seriously, and don’t intend it as an attack. I’m (personally) unclear on the perceived purpose of the minimum wage.

Edit 2: like many folks, my “we’ve never come close to it” is influenced by http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 and similar studies, and I’m aware of the opinions that the study was flawed or doesn’t generalize (e.g., https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal...).

14. rascul+l8[view] [source] 2018-09-12 12:50:16
>>boulos+(OP)
Interestingly enough, $7.25 would be enough for me to get by just fine where I'm at in Mississippi. I wouldn't have much left over, but it would more than cover my bills, food, and transportation. Not everyone could do it, but based on the numbers and my current expenses, I could. It's also a bit rare to find a job paying that little around here, based on what I saw during my job search in the beginning of the year. McDonald's, Lowe's and Walmart are all paying several dollars more than that. The dollar stores tend to pay that low, or slightly more, though.
replies(1): >>sharem+nd
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15. rascul+kb[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:08:41
>>boulos+74
> the US minimum wage isn’t enough to get by on

Depends on where in the US you live.

16. specia+Gb[view] [source] 2018-09-12 13:10:58
>>boulos+(OP)
(Accepting everything you've stated.)

What are some optimal tax rates? What are the target individual finances (food, housing, retirement, etc)? What should government spend money on?

I manifestly do not care what the absolute values are for minimum wage, fees, various tax rates, government spending, etc.

I do care about fairness, equal opportunity, rule of law, and empowerment. I care that people can feed and educate their kids, grow old, and play with their grandkids.

---

I want a SimCity for IRL policy.

Policy makers first simulate their proposals. Then repeat their experiments in the real world.

First a little, then a lot.

Hypothesis, experiment, evaluate. Rinse, lather, repeat.

As circumstances change and new ideas crop up, better strategies displace old strategies.

--

We're geeks. We should be thinking about this stuff systematically. Lead by example.

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17. sharem+nd[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:19:21
>>rascul+l8
Do you have any children?
replies(1): >>rascul+Rd
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18. rascul+Rd[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:22:29
>>sharem+nd
I do not.
replies(1): >>sharem+uO
19. bko+de[view] [source] 2018-09-12 13:24:37
>>boulos+(OP)
There are nearly twice as many Americans working below the minimum wage than at the minimum wage [0]. The BLS data is from self reported numbers. It doesn't include information about Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) or by individual state or local minimum wage laws. But if even a portion of those individuals working below the federal minimum wage in the gray market or under the table, it kind of makes minimum wage rates less important. If there is that much flexibility of employees to shift from (presumably) legal minimum wage jobs to under the table jobs paying below minimum wage, then increasing the minimum wage could serve to move some of those minimum wage workers to the informal sector. In the informal sector, they don't benefit from legal protections and would harm them in the long run (IMO).

[0] https://stats.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2016/home.ht...

replies(1): >>boulos+rj
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20. swift5+Ff[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:32:20
>>mikeas+l2
On a related note, wouldn't an employer likely fire a server that doesn't earn enough tips, say, two months in their employment?
replies(1): >>LeftTu+fy
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21. southe+Of[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:33:19
>>patric+j3
As far as I understand it, minimum wage helps people in employer markets. Prices would go down to zero or at least the minimum cost of living if people would fully compete for jobs in markets with more workers than jobs available.

Inevitably, the market for unskilled labor is an employer market because there will always be a supply of workers unless each and everybody has a job. However skilled somebody is, if he doesn't find a job in his profession, he falls back onto the unskilled labor market in every other profession.

It is correct that minimum wage prevents the existence of some jobs. But it ensures higher wages for all of the unskilled workers who create more value and who are not replaced by a lower bidder.

The jobs that create less value than minimum wage are still available for freelancers. Companies have to buy them as a product or service.

replies(1): >>dennis+iJ1
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22. boulos+rj[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 13:50:28
>>bko+de
Hmm. I don’t think that data necessarily leads to that conclusion. Two things:

- Many states have a higher minimum wage, so the BLS reports are annoying. They do strictly less-than-or-equal rather than also including “nearby” or even “minimum in state”, making the overall percentage fairly low. I’m guessing data for “What percentage of the labor force makes less than $15/hr” would be more helpful, but is too far from the current minimum wage to be a reasonable discussion.

- Anecdotally, informal labor is driven by workers without the right to work (whether due to immigration status or otherwise). So I don’t think it’s reasonable to suggest that people would suddenly end up below minimum wage; the more likely outcome is as others have suggested: companies will raise prices (keeping the job), invest in automation (removing the job), or both.

replies(1): >>boulos+O08
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23. LeftTu+fy[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 15:20:37
>>swift5+Ff
Hell yeah they can. At will work states and all.

The other states just have to find a reason to can them so i imagine its "somewhat" more difficult.

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24. sharem+uO[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 16:49:01
>>rascul+Rd
It changes your perspective 1000%.
replies(1): >>rascul+DQ
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25. rascul+DQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 16:59:58
>>sharem+uO
I am well aware that I would not be able to support children in my current situation if I were paid minimum wage.
26. dennis+Jt1[view] [source] 2018-09-12 20:54:15
>>boulos+(OP)
> minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty

Minimum wage is insufficient yet to put all population into poverty.

If we increase minimum wage to, say, $100/hour, then 99% of population would be not able to find any jobs [that pay minimum wage or more] and that would, effectively, put 99% of population into poverty.

With current $7.25/hr minimum wage only few percent of population cannot find jobs because they do not have enough skills to get minimum wage job.

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27. dennis+iJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-12 22:42:43
>>southe+Of
> minimum wage helps people in employer markets

No.

Minimum wage helps software developers to take away jobs from low skilled workers (because it forces employers to automate low-paying jobs).

Most of workers are hurt by minimum wage limit. The higher minimum wage limit is - the more workers are hurt by it.

It does NOT matter if job market is "employer market" or "candidate market". The impact of "minimum wage limit" increase is the same: lower skilled workers lose their jobs to software developers and other higher skilled workers.

replies(1): >>southe+7B2
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28. southe+7B2[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-13 10:36:14
>>dennis+iJ1
Only the work of those who create value below minimum wage has to be automated. I agree with you that their jobs have to be automated by software developers, or restructured in another way. E.g. delivery or Uber drivers can earn less than minimum wage because they are often not paid for their time.

However, every other job can be continued. Why should people be fired if employers can still make a profit? Minimum wage is like a hidden union that ensures that unskilled workers don't outbid themselves.

replies(1): >>dennis+udb
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29. boulos+O08[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-16 10:59:07
>>boulos+rj
It’s too late, but I found that the BLS has a decent histogram of pay: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2017/may/distribution.htm including broken out by industry.
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30. dennis+udb[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-09-17 22:23:23
>>southe+7B2
> Why should people be fired if employers can still make a profit?

In the situation when employer is forced to pay more -- he, usually, would benefit more if he hires more qualified person (for that higher rate of pay). So less qualified (but cheaper) worker will be fired (or not hired in the first place, if you consider long-term effects of minimum wage increase).

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